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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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Still, those who love to hate the U.S. wouldn't change their world view if [W.] Bush turned the White House into an ashram and chanted anti-war mantras.
I suspect this will be confirmed after the 2006 elections and then reconfirmed after 2008, when W. Bush retires from office and the hatred and bitterness remain. |
A modicum of hatred and bitterness will remain, as it always does with regards to the United States. However, you can't tell me that worldwide anti-Americanism has been at a constant level throughout the Clinton and Bush administrations. There has been a noticable increase, both in amount and intensity, under Bush.
I mean, when even Bush himself is admitting that his most famous catch-phrases ("with us or against us" and "mission accomplished") were public relations snafus, you have to wonder what exactly anyone can possibly think is left to defend about his overall approach. |
You may misunderstand me. I made no attempt to defend W. Bush or to mitigate or undermine any of the criticism directed against him (even though I find some of it reasonable and some of it unreasonable, and I think my views on this coincide with Kuros's, as apparently expressed, above, in the excerpt he selected).
I agree that W. Bush catalyzed and exacerbated the antiAmericanism we see today.
But one cannot catalyze or exacerbate something that is not already there, more or less in its ultimate form, seething under the surface -- be it partisan bias in the New York Times and other media or European and other antiAmericanism -- particularly in the so-called Third World.
As for Clinton's catalyzing and exacerbating European antiAmericanism, remember Yugoslavia...?
Here is a taste, where, if you recall, Greek protestors were calling him "a murderer" and "the Butcher of the Balkans."
| Quote: |
U.S. President Bill Clinton will spend time with Greek President Costis Stephanopoulos and Prime Minister Costas Simitis on Saturday during a 24-hour visit marred by violent anti-American protests in Athens.
Police estimated that 5,500 protesters, mostly communists, gathered in front of the Parliament building in the gathering dusk of Friday to protest Clinton's visit, his policy in Kosovo and U.S. support for the military junta that ruled Greece until 1974.
At least 41 people were arrested in the downtown clashes, police said. One man suffered severe head injuries, and 16 others were slightly injured.
Scores of shops were damaged, along with several banks. The ground floor offices of at least one bank were set on fire.The Greek government condemned the violence, saying left-wing extremists taking cover behind communist protesters were to blame. Police used tear gas and pepper spray to push back the crowd after it advanced upon police, a scene carried live on local television.
Clinton 'not taking this personally'
Clinton originally planned a longer stay in Greece, to begin before a European security summit in Istanbul, Turkey. But Greek and U.S. security concerns pushed him to postpone the trip until after the summit.
At a state dinner hosted by Greek President Stephanopoulos, Clinton said he had come as a friend to Greece, a country he said had stood with the United States in every conflict this century.
"As in all friendships, we have not always agreed, but we have never broken ranks because of our shared devotion to democracy and freedom," he said.
"If some engage in passionate debate, it is well to remember how hard both our countries have fought for their right to do just that," Clinton said.
An unnamed U.S. official said of the demonstrators, the president "is certainly not taking this personally."
Anger over U.S. role in attack on Yugoslavia
A small crowd waving U.S. and Greek flags greeted Clinton at the Athens international airport. But almost immediately afterward elsewhere in the Greek capital, the anti-U.S. protest erupted into a riot.
Angry at the U.S. president's leadership of the NATO assault on Yugoslavia, protesters carried signs portraying him as a murderer and "Butcher of the Balkans."
Walking slowly en masse down the street toward the U.S. Embassy, the protesters came literally face-to-face with the police -- and the tear gas.
A group of anarchists, who had gathered at a nearby rally, joined the main demonstration and responded to the police use of tear gas by hurling firebombs, rocks and marine flares, smashing storefront windows and burning U.S. flags. |
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9911/19/greece.clinton.02/
And, getting back to Vienna, here are some of the slogans that one observer saw while in Austria during Clinton's Balkan interventions...
| Quote: |
| "USA has a sex problem" and "Clinton: f--- Monica not Serbia" showed how our nation's moral credibility has been fractured by our leader's infidelities. The posters grew increasingly threatening: "USA= Nazi," "Please NATO don't kill my little brother," "1939=Hitler, 1999=Bill Clinton, Jews = Then, Serbia = Now" and "Are the radioactive bombs for Milosevic?" Interspersed with this display were Soviet flags, grave signs of Cold War nostalgia..."Mr. Clinton, Hitler also spoke about peace and democracy"..."Thank Monica for the war." |
http://www.digitas.harvard.edu/~salient/issues/990415/vienna.htm
In foreign affairs, then, it would seem that whenever the U.S. acts -- and sometimes when it does not act -- this enflames European antiAmericanism, W. Bush in the Oval Office or not. |
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Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
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| Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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The Greeks have some history of disliking America. They feel that the Americans sided with and supported the then-ruling military junta who at one point used tanks to break down the entrance gates of the Polytechnic and opened fire on protesting students.
I know this because a good Greek friend of mine, then an engineering student, was in the building at the time.
As it happens, and like the great but silent majority of Europeans, he bears no animoisty towards the Americans. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Wangja wrote: |
| As it happens, and like the great but silent majority of Europeans, he bears no animoisty towards the Americans. |
The majority shouldn't. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:53 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
Quote:
Still, those who love to hate the U.S. wouldn't change their world view if [W.] Bush turned the White House into an ashram and chanted anti-war mantras.
I suspect this will be confirmed after the 2006 elections and then reconfirmed after 2008, when W. Bush retires from office and the hatred and bitterness remain. |
A modicum of hatred and bitterness will remain, as it always does with regards to the United States. However, you can't tell me that worldwide anti-Americanism has been at a constant level throughout the Clinton and Bush administrations. There has been a noticable increase, both in amount and intensity, under Bush.
I mean, when even Bush himself is admitting that his most famous catch-phrases ("with us or against us" and "mission accomplished") were public relations snafus, you have to wonder what exactly anyone can possibly think is left to defend about his overall approach. |
You may misunderstand me. I made no attempt to defend W. Bush or to mitigate or undermine any of the criticism directed against him (even though I find some of it reasonable and some of it unreasonable, and I think my views on this coincide with Kuros's, as apparently expressed, above, in the excerpt he selected).
I agree that W. Bush catalyzed and exacerbated the antiAmericanism we see today.
But one cannot catalyze or exacerbate something that is not already there, more or less in its ultimate form, seething under the surface -- be it partisan bias in the New York Times and other media or European and other antiAmericanism -- particularly in the so-called Third World.
As for Clinton's catalyzing and exacerbating European antiAmericanism, remember Yugoslavia...?
Here is a taste, where, if you recall, Greek protestors were calling him "a murderer" and "the Butcher of the Balkans."
| Quote: |
U.S. President Bill Clinton will spend time with Greek President Costis Stephanopoulos and Prime Minister Costas Simitis on Saturday during a 24-hour visit marred by violent anti-American protests in Athens.
Police estimated that 5,500 protesters, mostly communists, gathered in front of the Parliament building in the gathering dusk of Friday to protest Clinton's visit, his policy in Kosovo and U.S. support for the military junta that ruled Greece until 1974.
At least 41 people were arrested in the downtown clashes, police said. One man suffered severe head injuries, and 16 others were slightly injured.
Scores of shops were damaged, along with several banks. The ground floor offices of at least one bank were set on fire.The Greek government condemned the violence, saying left-wing extremists taking cover behind communist protesters were to blame. Police used tear gas and pepper spray to push back the crowd after it advanced upon police, a scene carried live on local television.
Clinton 'not taking this personally'
Clinton originally planned a longer stay in Greece, to begin before a European security summit in Istanbul, Turkey. But Greek and U.S. security concerns pushed him to postpone the trip until after the summit.
At a state dinner hosted by Greek President Stephanopoulos, Clinton said he had come as a friend to Greece, a country he said had stood with the United States in every conflict this century.
"As in all friendships, we have not always agreed, but we have never broken ranks because of our shared devotion to democracy and freedom," he said.
"If some engage in passionate debate, it is well to remember how hard both our countries have fought for their right to do just that," Clinton said.
An unnamed U.S. official said of the demonstrators, the president "is certainly not taking this personally."
Anger over U.S. role in attack on Yugoslavia
A small crowd waving U.S. and Greek flags greeted Clinton at the Athens international airport. But almost immediately afterward elsewhere in the Greek capital, the anti-U.S. protest erupted into a riot.
Angry at the U.S. president's leadership of the NATO assault on Yugoslavia, protesters carried signs portraying him as a murderer and "Butcher of the Balkans."
Walking slowly en masse down the street toward the U.S. Embassy, the protesters came literally face-to-face with the police -- and the tear gas.
A group of anarchists, who had gathered at a nearby rally, joined the main demonstration and responded to the police use of tear gas by hurling firebombs, rocks and marine flares, smashing storefront windows and burning U.S. flags. |
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9911/19/greece.clinton.02/
And, getting back to Vienna, here are some of the slogans that one observer saw while in Austria during Clinton's Balkan interventions...
| Quote: |
| "USA has a sex problem" and "Clinton: f--- Monica not Serbia" showed how our nation's moral credibility has been fractured by our leader's infidelities. The posters grew increasingly threatening: "USA= Nazi," "Please NATO don't kill my little brother," "1939=Hitler, 1999=Bill Clinton, Jews = Then, Serbia = Now" and "Are the radioactive bombs for Milosevic?" Interspersed with this display were Soviet flags, grave signs of Cold War nostalgia..."Mr. Clinton, Hitler also spoke about peace and democracy"..."Thank Monica for the war." |
http://www.digitas.harvard.edu/~salient/issues/990415/vienna.htm
In foreign affairs, then, it would seem that whenever the U.S. acts -- and sometimes when it does not act -- this enflames European antiAmericanism, W. Bush in the Oval Office or not. |
Calling Greek anger European anger... criminy.... and trying to equate that incident to current events? Must you always be disingenious (sp?)? |
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