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| WAR CRIMES? |
| Yes, obviously a WAR CRIME!!! |
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| No, I am an idiot republican liar!!! |
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| Total Votes : 12 |
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WorldWide
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
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 Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 9:39 am Post subject: america War Crimes in Iraq |
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CNN and all other american news outlets keep referring to these despicable crimes by american soldiers as "atrocities". But to date I have not heard the pentagon refer to them as "War Crimes". The propaganda wheel keeps spinning... What do you all think? When a soldier rapes an Iraqi woman, then shoots her to death, shoots her entire family to death then burns the bodies and house to cover up the crime...do you think that constitutes a WAR CRIME?
CNN story |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 11:24 am Post subject: |
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Though I applaud your sigline and avatar, I might need to point out that Canadian and British troops have previously been shown to have been culpable in similar atrocities. Any discussion that starts with this title
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| america War Crimes in Iraq |
needs to take that into account ... to wit, the tribunal will have to be a little broader in scope than the present discussion is allowing for.
Not arguing with the concept of war crimes trials, just with the specific and exclusive target so far presented for discussion. Any time war happens, atrocities will also happen. The only question is whether they will later become public knowledge or merely a cause for internal festering and eventual PTSD among those who come home and prefer not to talk about what they saw.
No, there's another very important question : was the war wroth it at all? Were the aims really in the best interest of the country? But that's quite aside from any question of what is an atrocity or a war crime ...
(Also, we might want to consider whether the actions of some of the fellas on the other side - and gals and sometimes children - setting off bombs helter-skelter, and not just in Iraq, will also be under the jurisdiction of any group that seeks to prosecute war crimes. Personally, I'm hoping so. Otherwise the whole project would be meaningless.)
I'll persist in thinking "atrocity" is the better word. It is what WE are SUPPOSED to be better than, and what our enemy is SUPPOSED to consider normal behavior. In the best sort of world, this is what I want : to be better than my enemy. Is that a lot to ask?
Being an optimist, I remain convinced that we can some day achieve this betterness. In my heart I know we have the capacity for it, it is there, inside of us, waiting to be expressed ... I'm not talking just about the Americans I count myself as one of, but the others from the West who cannot seem to keep themselves out of these foreign wars, and the atroctities that are inevitable inside of them.
Your one-sided view of things does not encourage me with regard to ultimate unserstanding of the causes of such things, though. I suspect it comes from a non-American who is espousing views that are simply and wholly un-American only for reasons that have much to do with personal resentments and little to do with actual realities ...
I could be wrong, but this is what my nose is telling me at the moment. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
Though I applaud your sigline and avatar, I might need to point out that Canadian and British troops have previously been shown to have been culpable in similar atrocities. Any discussion that starts with this title
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| america War Crimes in Iraq |
needs to take that into account ... to wit, the tribunal will have to be a little broader in scope than the present discussion is allowing for.
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What Canadian troops have been accused of atrocities in IRAQ? That is the country under discussion after all. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:14 am Post subject: |
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| Being an optimist, I remain convinced that we can some day achieve this betterness. In my heart I know we have the capacity for it, it is there, inside of us, waiting to be expressed ... I'm not talking just about the Americans I count myself as one of, but the others from the West who cannot seem to keep themselves out of these foreign wars, and the atroctities that are inevitable inside of them. |
I agree with the thought. Yes, there is betterness, it is a better way. If you know there will be pain, destruction, bitterness, death and atrocities ----- best to not go there. This is often the biggest moral thing a man can do TO NOT DO. It takes a brave man to restrain himself, control himself and stand above so much.
My thoughts.
DD |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:21 am Post subject: |
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Good post, Bobster.
Gotta say, though. Making reasoned and informed arguments to Worldwide is a little like reading Shakespeare to the puke-drenched drunk screaming obscenities at you from a back alley. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:36 am Post subject: |
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I thought this wouldn't be applicable as a war crime, since it was a crime by some individuals during war, but I was very wrong.
War Crimes
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| In the context of war, a war crime is a punishable offense under International_Law, for violations of the laws of war by any person or persons, military or civilian. Every violation of the law of war in an inter-state conflict is a war crime, while violations in internal conflicts are typically limited to the local jurusdiction. In essence, the term "war crime" represents the concept of an international jurisdiction as applicable to the most severe crimes, in areas where government is dysfunctional and society is in a state of turmoil. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| What Canadian troops have been accused of atrocities in IRAQ? |
Not sure of your point. I wasn't limiting the discussion to Iraq, not sure why you'd want to ... unless you have some reaon you'd rather not discuss some of the bad stuff your boys have done. In fact, I was seeking to expand the scope of the discussion in a realistic way.
What I clearly said was "Canadian and British troops have previously been shown to have been culpable in similar atrocities." I'm not sure why you want to take issue with this. Is it false? Are atrocities and war crimes that occur in the world only happening in Iraq? The answers are no, and no. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:56 am Post subject: |
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If ever one was to stop & actually "think" about it they would realize how the very term WAR CRIMES is itself entirely redundant.
WAR ... IS by its very nature "CRIMINAL"  |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| What Canadian troops have been accused of atrocities in IRAQ? |
Not sure of your point. I wasn't limiting the discussion to Iraq, not sure why you'd want to ... unless you have some reaon you'd rather not discuss some of the bad stuff your boys have done. In fact, I was seeking to expand the scope of the discussion in a realistic way.
What I clearly said was "Canadian and British troops have previously been shown to have been culpable in similar atrocities." I'm not sure why you want to take issue with this. Is it false? Are atrocities and war crimes that occur in the world only happening in Iraq? The answers are no, and no. |
I wasn't limiting the discussion to Iraq...That WAS the discussion and topic. The thread title says american War Crimes in Iraq. And that was what the original poster was talking about. You then pointed out that other nationalities have committed war crimes..but didn't mention other countries. In fact you went on to make specific references to Iraq "was the war {worth} it at all? Were the aims really in the best interest of the country?"
That said, I can see where you are coming from in your follow-up post. I agree that war crimes should be prosecuted and I also agree with your sentiment that BOTH sides should be under the "jurisdiction of any group that seeks to prosecute war crimes." |
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Sooke
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Location: korea
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:44 am Post subject: |
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Not in Iraq, but the Airborne guys really fucked up in Somalia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia_Affair
Not just Canadians either.
"Canada was not the only country to face problems in Somalia. There were severe casualties on all sides in the warlord-dominated chaos. The Battle of Mogadishu resulted in 500-1000 Somali militia and civilian deaths, as well as eighteen American and two Pakistani deaths, following which the US decided to leave the country. Soldiers of other countries also faced charges of misconduct: Italian troops were photographed appearing to rape a Somali woman and Belgian soldiers took photographs of themselves urinating on and burning Somalis."
To paraphrase Forrest: "Soldiers is as soldiers does." |
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WorldWide
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| Sooke wrote: |
| To paraphrase Forrest: "Soldiers is as soldiers does." |
That's not good enough. You can't dismiss what those scum americans did by saying, "oh, it has been done before...". Sorry, NO, america invaded Iraq unlawfully. You are occupying Iraq unlawfully. Raping a girl in front of her family, then shooting her point blank in the head 3 times, then killing the entire family, then burning the bodies, then burning the house to hide you actions, then lying about it and saying it was enemy action is a WAR CRIME.
Those scum soldiers need to be shot to death by firing. |
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Mitch Comestein
Joined: 13 Jun 2006
Location: South
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:01 am Post subject: |
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I think that it is a little too obvious that WorldWide is an American, and is posting the way he does to show the idiocy of those that truly think like he acts like he does.
For example, the iPod thing. (Which has since been removed)
He said he refused to sell it to an American. You have to act like that kind of idiot. People that are really that stupid couldn't turn on the computer or function well enough to type a complete sentence.
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Dear WW,
You'll buy an American product, giving that money to the Americans and the American government so that they can continue to do the things that you ignorantly blather on about. Then, instead of allowing an American to buy that back from you so that you can further your own anti-American agenda and take that money out of the American government's hands, preventing them from using that money to continue to do the things that you ingnorantly blather on about, you force them to buy another iPod, and give more money to the American government allowing them to continue doing the things that you ignorantly blather on about.
Mitch
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If the irony is lost on him, he doesn't see the stupidity of his own words, or he really feels the way that he acts like he does, he has to have some sort of brain dysfunction that would prevent him from having the cognitive abilities necessary to connect to this site.
He's an American. He loves America. He is either being overzealous in order to caricaturize himself as an anti-American, or he is trying to show that people who think like he acts like he does are as annoying as we all think he is. |
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WorldWide
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:14 am Post subject: |
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Nice try mitch. That tactic of turning your opponent into the thing he protests against is very common. Not too imaginative on your part. I'll tell you flat out I am not american. And I'll tell you I never paid for that iPod  Some idiot american backpacker must be wondering where he dropped it.  |
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otis
Joined: 02 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:23 am Post subject: |
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What we need to do is commit more war crimes.
Waterboarding? I'm for it. I guess it's a war crime.
Making the enemy wear panties on their head? Love it. I guess it's a war crime.
Sleep deprivation? Into it. War crime? Who knows?
Shaving beards and spanking asses? Seems ok to me. War crime? Probably.
All of war is a crime. The goal is to win.
Japan is a great example. We dropped two nuclear bombs on them. We weren't interested in understanding them until they understood in no uncertain terms that they had just been defeated. War crime? Of course.
I would also like to commit war crimes against North Korea and Iran. Might as well drain the swamp before their weoponry gets sophisticated. I mean, those missles aren't going to keep falling in the Sea of Japan forever. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| It takes a brave man to restrain himself, control himself and stand above so much. |
Or a coward. |
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