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Israeli Soldiers Captured by Hezbollah
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:02 am    Post subject: Israeli Soldiers Captured by Hezbollah Reply with quote

Apparently Hezbollah was starting to feel jealous of Hamas and all the press it has been getting. To bring the spotlight back on itself, hezbollah decided to copy its Palestinian brothers.

Yahoo News article

Now if I were a lebanese person I'd be pretty pissed off. Thanks to some wack job shi'ites Israel is going to come in and blow up the country (again). What else is Israel to do?

Hezballah really screwed up this time.
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Israel launches a military offensive into southern Lebanon following the capture of two soldiers by Hezbollah militants. Seven Israeli soldiers have died in the fighting. Nicholas Blanford, of The Christian Science Monitor, is at the Israel-Lebanon border and speaks with Madeleine Brand about the conflict.


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5551684
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bignate



Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Location: Hell's Ditch

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Israeli's have now called up reserves, and are preparing for a broader escalation, this is going to get severely messy...they have essentially threatened to set the Lebanese infrastructure back 20-50 years...

In the end, do you figure that the Israelis will trade? I mean, they have before...it seems like they are going in to soften Hezbollah up a bit, and to perhaps make Lebanon think a little bit harder about the usefulness of Hezbollah. Also, with the statements made by Nasrallah, that the hostages are away from the front...it could be tough to regain them by force.
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are some facts to help bring the larger context into sharper focus:

(1) Hezbollah participates in Lebanon's govt;

(2) Hezbollah's policy is not to coexist with Israel but rather to destroy Israel;

(3) Both the U.S. govt and the Israelis characterize Hezbollah as a terrorist organization;

(4) The U.S. govt identifies Syria and Iran as Hezbollah's patrons (money, weapons, advice, training, and intelligence liaison); and

(5) Many critics and postmodernists allege that it is Israel who is the terrorist and, of course, the U.S. who is the state sponsor of terrorism here.

Here is a link to some useful data:

http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

What remains in the background is Syria and Iran's probable complicity in any of this, although my understanding is that Rice has already started calling them out.


Last edited by Gopher on Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:17 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Octavius Hite



Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with the fcat that Israel must get its soldiers back and must be strong but they seem to be playing right into the hands of the Islamists.

Byenetering back into Gaza the Israelis are now engaged in street fighting and Hamas is trying to bring the tactics from Iraq and Afghanistan to bear on the IDF. Now with Lebanon being invaded (again) Israel is in a two front war and I suspect the Mujhadeen would love for them to invade Syria, that would be perfect for bin Laden because then it would prove the US/Israel conspiracies and we could see the start of a gulf wide insurgent based war. Israel can't win trying to occupy Lebannon or Syria and the Islamists have a huge PR victory already. I think its time to start rethinking the startegy here because the Islamists are winning.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before this, I thought calling Hezballah a terrorist organization was wrong. I thought it was merely fighting Israel and its allies (the US and France when they were there in the 80s). Its tactics were rather inhumane and brutal at times, but hey, it did manage to "motivate" Israel to leave southern Lebanon. But now? Gotta agree with the State Department's assessment. There is absolutely no valid reason for Hezballah's actions this time.
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We may as well christen this the war thread, as it is clearly a large-scale war now.

I must say, from a stricty military perspective, I have always admired the way the Israelis simply just do not play. Looks like air traffic in and out of Beirut has been shut down...

Quote:
JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Israeli aircraft bombed Beirut International Airport Thursday, sending plumes of smoke into the morning sky, the Israel Defense Forces said.

The IDF said it targeted the airport because it served as a central hub for the transfer for weapons and supplies to Hezbollah...


This claim, too, interests me...

Quote:
Nasrallah said the two soldiers had been taken to a place "far, far away" and that an Israeli military campaign would not win their release.


If it turns out to be Syria or Iran, there might be an escalation of U.S. involvement in this.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/13/mideast/index.html
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Octavius Hite



Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What concerns me about this is that it has the potential to spill out of control into a World War very quickly. We are facing a very big cliff and Hezbollah just pushed us closer. If Iran or Syria makes a move it will be all out war. We should be concerned and Bush should be in the freaking middle east trying to stop this from happening.
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bigverne



Joined: 12 May 2004

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think its time to start rethinking the startegy here because the Islamists are winning.


What do you think Israel should do? It's all very well to criticise Israel for 'playing into the hands of the Islamists' without proposing a viable alternative. The only options on the table are bad ones, and Israel has chosen the best of those options.
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Octavius Hite



Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't criticisizing as much as suggesting that the Islamists knew this was coming and were counting on it. What they have learned in Iraq they have brought to Afghanistan and vice versa. I believe that they now want Israel to invade Gaza and Lebanon and then Syria. This is what they want, so they should try something new. What would I suggest?

1. My consistant idea has been to return to the 1967 borders, fence off the new Palestinian state and give Jereulism (sp) to the UN and have it designated an International city open to everybody and patrolled by an indepedant force.

2. If you wanted to take the tough line, I would declare Palestine persona non grata (sp) and expell all Palestinians from the terrotories. Move in and push everyone out of Gaza into Egypt then seal the border then do the West Bank and then be done with it, no more Palestine and thats it.

Either of these would be better (I think) than what is happening right now because I believe that this is a very well coordinated plan trying to draw Israel the the West into a broad (and very difficult) war throughout the Middle-east
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Junior



Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Israel hands back gaza and the islamist response is to kidnap their soldiers?
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Octavius Hite wrote:
We should be concerned and [W.] Bush should be in the freaking middle east trying to stop this from happening.


Your concerns are justified.

I believe they are also the W. Bush Administration's concerns. My understanding is that Rice has been on the phone with UN and regional leaders over this since it started. (Still, I cannot help wishing that Carter, H.W. Bush, or Clinton had been in the White House for this.)

However, we should not overestimate Washington's ability to influence events on the ground over there. We have done our best to restrain Israel, and for the very reasons that you are concerned, in the face of Saddam's attacks and others' provocations into the present day. But everyone has a threshhold where they will not sit back and take it anymore. And, as you say, Hezbollah just pushed Israel over that threshhold.

We should also be cautious, incidentally, in assigning too much control to Syria and Iran, with respect to Hezbollah's actions.

Still, this certainly has the potential to pull everyone in to a much larger conflagration where at least two or three of the players have nukes.

And I do not believe any of your proposals would likely succeed for the simple fact that the bottom line here is that most of the Arab world refuses to coexist with Israel. That is the cornerstone issue.
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
UNITED NATIONS (CNN) -- The Palestinian and Israeli ambassadors to the United Nations engaged in an impromptu debate Wednesday in the hallway outside the Security Council...

"You are so in love with occupation that you, you cling to it even when we leave every single inch," Gillerman said.

In the middle of Gillerman's sentence, Mansour injected, "We hate occupation."

"You are not leaving us; I wish you'd leave us alone," Mansour said.

Gillerman told Mansour that the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza last year was "one of the most heart-wrenching acts by any Israeli leader."

"Why are the soldiers inside?" Mansour asked. "Leave us alone."

When Gillerman said Israel had left the Palestinians alone, Mansour disagreed.

But Gillerman responded: "Your own people, your government had two choices. Take care of its people or turn it into a terrorist. You chose the latter, and you're paying the price."

"No, that is not true," Mansour said.

"The problem is occupation," Mansour said. "Once occupation is completely out, then peace and freedom will prevail. Consider it seriously..."

Despite the tense situation...both diplomats remained cordial, shaking hands at the end of their one-minute exchange.


http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/12/mideast.conversation/index.html
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Junior



Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gopher wrote:

"The problem is occupation," Mansour said. "Once occupation is completely out, then peace and freedom will prevail. Consider it seriously..."


I totally agree. Arabs really should stop occupying Jewish land.
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otis



Joined: 02 Jun 2006

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I must say, from a stricty military perspective, I have always admired the way the Israelis simply just do not play. Looks like air traffic in and out of Beirut has been shut down...


I think they are absolutely wonderful.

Israel reminds me of the strict teacher that no one will play with. Notice how the hostages of the terrorists are still alive and doing well.

The U.S., unfortunately, is now like the substitute who sits on a tack. Why? We pay too much attention to World opinion. Our troops suffer. They get beheaded after getting their eyes gouged out.

We haven't won a war since WWII because we're too busy kissing ass.

As a former military guy, I'd rather serve for Israel. I might still die a horrible death, but at least I'd have the satisfaction of knowing that there would be people behind me willing to get their hands dirty in order to avenge my murder.
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