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squad5
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
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 Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:07 pm Post subject: I've seen the way it happens |
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| don't think europe will side with russia and china, in fact that's the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard. The UK will obviously be with the us, and most likely poland and the netherlands from the get go. I forsee the rest of europe dragging their feet in the mud just as the U.S. did in WWII eventually they will have no choice because the war will be upon them whether they want it or not. The people that will insite the europeans will be the turks. And who mentioned venezuala and bombs??? bananas wrapped up in a combination of cocaine and gasoline do not constitute a bomb comprende? But seriously I hope everyone understand that this is upon us and you have to choose sides or have your side chosen for you. I personally choose a holy warrior for God not Allah, but that's just me. Laugh now but none of us will be laughing in a couple of months |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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Ya-ta Boy wrote:
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...and isn't beyond shaking down some two-bit punk for the bag of weed that's in his pocket.
Hmmmm....
Could you be a little more specific on the exact meaning of this 'metaphor'? Please.
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Some of the USA's military actions, while ostensibly about maintaining order in the world, are really motivated by self-interest. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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This cannot possibly be offered as some kind of revelation.
How about this...?
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| Throughout history, at least some of any hegemonic and even non-hegemonic nation-state's foreign policies and military actions, while ostensibly about maintaining order in the world or other pretexts that treat the greater good, are really motivated by self-interest. |
It always amazes me to read about self-interest in Egyptian, Persian, Classical Greek and Roman, preContact Mesoamerican and Andean, Spanish, French, British, German, and American history, where I find this and many other human flaws.
Then people naively protest, and indeed cite outrage, upon discovering that America, at times, acts in its own interests, as if the United States invented selfishness and corrupted what was only two hundred years ago a pure and good world of altruistic peoples and cultures...
So pointing this out about the U.S., then, in the larger context of world history, makes about as much sense as pointing to one culture or nation-state and pointing out: "Look! They are breathing air!" |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: I've seen the way it happens |
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| squad5 wrote: |
| don't think europe will side with russia and china, in fact that's the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard. The UK will obviously be with the us, and most likely poland and the netherlands from the get go. I forsee the rest of europe dragging their feet in the mud just as the U.S. did in WWII eventually they will have no choice because the war will be upon them whether they want it or not. The people that will insite the europeans will be the turks. And who mentioned venezuala and bombs??? bananas wrapped up in a combination of cocaine and gasoline do not constitute a bomb comprende? But seriously I hope everyone understand that this is upon us and you have to choose sides or have your side chosen for you. I personally choose a holy warrior for God not Allah, but that's just me. Laugh now but none of us will be laughing in a couple of months |
The world has changed since WW2. More Europeans identify with China than with America. Human secularism is closer to communism than it is to Christianity. Even in Britian there are many people who don't relate to Bush and his conservative base and their worldview. Tony Blair has lost a lot of support.
Most people forget that Communism in China killed 60 million people a few decades back and that Stalin killed many of his country men; more than Hitler.
Most people throughout the world are opposed to the war in Iraq and will be more opposed to a war in Iran when terrorists start coming and bombing their own countries. The cost will be too high. They will ask the question: "For what? To save Israel?"
They will look at the models that Russia and China have right now and think, I can handle that; Google has. They have compomised their freedom of speech to get in on the money boat. How many other companies/investors are in the same boat?
What is scary is that the NY Times continues to compromise the security of the West to move it's own agenda. They personally believe that Bush and Christianity are a greater Evil than terrorism. There will be no boundaries to which they will try to pull the plug on Bush and Israel.
Hey, I hope I am wrong. I hope Chavaz, Putin, Kim Jong, Ahmadinejad are idiots, but I suspect they have different ideas than promoting world democracy. They know that they have to act now. Democracy in the middle east would destabilize all of their regimes. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
This cannot possibly be offered as some kind of revelation.
How about this...?
Quote:
Throughout history, at least some of any hegemonic and even non-hegemonic nation-state's foreign policies and military actions, while ostensibly about maintaining order in the world or other pretexts that treat the greater good, are really motivated by self-interest.
It always amazes me to read about self-interest in Egyptian, Persian, Classical Greek and Roman, preContact Mesoamerican and Andean, Spanish, French, British, German, and American history, where I find this and many other human flaws.
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I would have hoped by now that you know me well enough to realize that I don't regard the USA as unique in its pursuit of self-interest.
But since you enjoy cataloguing my metaphors and analogies so much(  ), let's fine-tune the riff...
Everyone in the bar is self-motivated, but the bouncer is the one best situated to combine his self-interest with his professional duties.
(Sorry I couldn't come up with anything more Ross Perot-ish for you, but to be perfectly honest I've been trying to remember some of his famous analogies all day, and the only one I could come up with was the "giant sucking sound" one from his debate with Al Gore.) |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| More Europeans identify with China than with America. |
Maybe at their psuedo-intellectual c ocktail parties and gallery openings where they sit around talking about how "the ancient Chinese civilization will finally rise up to knock those arrogant yanks off their blood-soaked throne". However, if they were ever faced with a stark choice between Chinese values and American values ruling the world, Europeans would run screaming into the loving clutches of Uncle Sam.
Not that I think such a scenario will likely come to pass anytime soon. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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Ya-ta Boy wrote:
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...and isn't beyond shaking down some two-bit punk for the bag of weed that's in his pocket.
Hmmmm....
Could you be a little more specific on the exact meaning of this 'metaphor'? Please.
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Some of the USA's military actions, while ostensibly about maintaining order in the world, are really motivated by self-interest. |
'The World's Bouncer.' Hey, I appreciated it, OTOH. I might use it next time to break the deadlock between the false paradigm of a righteous policeman and a villainous bully. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| Sorry I couldn't come up with anything more Ross Perot-ish for you, but to be perfectly honest I've been trying to remember some of his famous analogies all day, and the only one I could come up with was the "giant sucking sound" one from his debate with Al Gore.) |
If you can get the transcripts from the Larry King Show where they debated NAFTA -- I think this is the one you refer to -- you will indeed find many classic Perotisms.
"Can I finish? Larry, can I finish...? Can...I...finish?"
I do know you well enough, on the other thing, it is just that there are so many impressionable minds here, I wanted to be sure we got that straight.
How about Santa? If he could be proven to exist, I would bet that I could establish that he, too, partly acts in self-interest...employing all those elves at cheap rates -- and doesn't he get quite a few women sitting and bouncing on his lap every Christmas, much to his wife's chagrin?
Still, this does not undermine his reputation for being great with kids all over the world and generally a good guy... |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
...if they were ever faced with a stark choice between Chinese values and American values ruling the world, Europeans would run screaming into the loving clutches of Uncle Sam.
Not that I think such a scenario will likely come to pass anytime soon. |
We need something like this to happen...the Celts and Gauls were coming...
| Polybius wrote: |
| ...in Rome itself the people were filled with dread; the danger that threatened them was, they believed, both great and imminent, and these feelings were natural enough, since the age-old terror inspired by the Gauls had never been altogether dispelled...Help was readily provided on all sides, for the other inhabitants of Italy were so terror-stricken by the invasion of the Gauls that they no longer thought of themselves as allies [subjects?] of Rome, nor regarded this as a war undertaken to uphold Roman hegemony. On the contrary, every people saw the danger as one which threatened themselves and their own city and territory. For this reason they responded to the orders from Rome without a moment's hesitation... |
It does not always work out this way.
Rather than banding together and surviving as a civilization, the Mexicans and Andeans both fragmented -- some loyal to the Aztecs and the Incas, and others bitterly opposed to their hegemony. These latter not only stood by and watched their own civilization go down, but, in many cases, they helped bring it about.
I particularly think of Tetzcoco, Tenochtitlan's northern neighbor(), who did nothing but smirk and watch as Cortez and his army destroyed the Aztecs, and then, at the last moment, this city offered to help but only on condition that Tenochtitlan give up its hegemony -- which the Tetzcocoans never approved of -- and transfer it to them. Although Tenochtitlan desperately agreed to this, it was already too late. It was not a question of bringing Tehnochtitlan down to size so that Tetzcoco could take over and run things better. Aztec civilization, for all intents and purposes, had, by that time, simply been destroyed, once and for all. And after Tenochtitlan went down, literally in rubble and flames, Tetzcoco was next.
I am not saying that these disastrous events await us in the future. Just that given the bitterness that exists towards the U.S., if such a threat were to face the West in whicever WWIII scenario that might unfold, we might just all go down, as Rome eventually did, too. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| How about Santa? If he could be proven to exist, I would bet that I could establish that he, too, partly acts in self-interest... |
If Santa were to act altruistically, he would give presents every night of the year. Christmas Eve is just a raw publicity stunt on his part to get all the credit for being generous. If he were truly a nice guy, he wouldn't allow his picture to appear on all those millions of Christmas cards; he wouldn't allow all those impersonators in the malls and on street corners; he would sue the Christmas stockings off all those song writers who churn out songs about him coming to town and kissing mommy.
Face it. Santa is just a publicity hound who's bamboozled the world into believing his hype. I think it's disgusting. Phooey on him. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| I wanted to leave the diabolical Santa-corporate America conspiracy out of this discussion, just in case there were any children reading this thread... |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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Kuros wrote:
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On the other hand wrote:
Quote:
Ya-ta Boy wrote:
Quote:
...and isn't beyond shaking down some two-bit punk for the bag of weed that's in his pocket.
Hmmmm....
Could you be a little more specific on the exact meaning of this 'metaphor'? Please.
Some of the USA's military actions, while ostensibly about maintaining order in the world, are really motivated by self-interest.
'The World's Bouncer.' Hey, I appreciated it, OTOH. I might use it next time to break the deadlock between the false paradigm of a righteous policeman and a villainous bully.
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And the beauty of it is it that there are numerous types of bouncers that can be imagined, of varying moral and tempermental hues, depending on the politics of the person making the analogy.
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
Kuros wrote:
| Quote: |
On the other hand wrote:
Quote:
Ya-ta Boy wrote:
Quote:
...and isn't beyond shaking down some two-bit punk for the bag of weed that's in his pocket.
Hmmmm....
Could you be a little more specific on the exact meaning of this 'metaphor'? Please.
Some of the USA's military actions, while ostensibly about maintaining order in the world, are really motivated by self-interest.
'The World's Bouncer.' Hey, I appreciated it, OTOH. I might use it next time to break the deadlock between the false paradigm of a righteous policeman and a villainous bully.
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And the beauty of it is it that there are numerous types of bouncers that can be imagined, of varying moral and tempermental hues, depending on the politics of the person making the analogy.
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Ya, but no matter what, if you are hot, blond and have good "assets", you can always get to the front of the line |
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deadman
Joined: 27 May 2006
Location: Suwon
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| Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| Ya, but no matter what, if you are hot, blond and have good "assets", you can always get to the front of the line |
Or in this case, Jewish. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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