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Israeli Soldiers Captured by Hezbollah
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:26 am Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Israel has only been able to survive by "beating up Arabs for over 50 years now." The slightest sign of weakness would have only encouraged more attacks.

This is an often overlooked point that gets at the crux of the issue.

The Arab Middle East does not tolerate and will not ever coexist with Israel. There has not been, is not now, and will never be any negotiating with them on this point.

They want Israel annihilated. (Their real issues have nothing to do with the Palestinians or Gaza.)

Nation-states like Syria, Iran, Libya, and others have made open war against Israel and run numerous covert operations and created and supported terrorist guerrillas to accomplish this end for decades.

They have used the people and areas bordering on Israel as a base of operations to manage the latter.

We have felt this from hijacked airplanes to suicide bombers to, ultimately, 9/11 and related attacks and phenomena.

Israel has certainly lost perspective from time to time and responded harshly, perhaps even criminally, especially with respect to the Palestinians. Still, revealingly, while some Israelis recognize and lament this, there are no Arabs or Arab groups that I am aware of who have recognized or lamented their own terroristic campaigns and human rights abuses. This is because, for the most part, and with respect to Israel, they tend to be quite rabid.

The heart of the matter, then, is that we believe (some of us, at least) that Isreal has a right to exist. This is the root of the conflict.

All discussions that treat responsibility and fault must start at this point: the Arab Middle East is intolerant and even childlike when it comes to Israel.

Tel Aviv's demands -- that its two kidnapped soldiers be returned, that Hezbollah disarm, and that the Lebanese govt assert its authority in South Lebanon -- are not only reasonable but, given the circumstances, moderate and restrained.

If it were up to me, Iran would pay for this. Tehran should not be permitted to start a war whenever it likes just to divert attention and then blame Israel for it.

Bulsajo

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:37 am Post subject: Re: ...

Nowhere Man wrote:

Yes, stratfor is lord.

We had to attack Iraq.

It's just that simple.

'Simple', how appropriate.
All Israelis and Americans are evil and have blood on their hands, and peace loving Arabs (and their pacifistic Iranian neighbours) are innocently crushed by these malevolent powers.
Simple indeed.

I would never claim that Stratfor does not have its biases (and I have pointed out their biases here in the past), but did you really gain nothing from their analysis of the situation?

That would make you simple indeed, IMO.

bucheon bum

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:48 pm Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Israel has only been able to survive by "beating up Arabs for over 50 years now." The slightest sign of weakness would have only encouraged more attacks.

I'd qualify that as numerous arab countries. Jordan and Egypt co-exist with Israel. Ironically enough, the one country Israelis seemed to view positively was Jordan. Ironic because Jordan's population is majority palestinian.

Mauratania (sp?) is the one other Arab country with full diplomatic ties to Israel. Morocco, qatar, and perhaps a couple other gulf states have economic relations (albeit small and very much on the downlow) as well.

Quote:

If it were up to me, Iran would pay for this. Tehran should not be permitted to start a war whenever it likes just to divert attention and then blame Israel for it.

Yup. Iran has been getting away with too much for too long. Enough is enough. Syria too.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:59 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the qualification, Bucheon.

I do count on you to straighten me out on some facts and details from time to time -- be it Che's movements in Africa or helping me narrow my point on the Arab Middle East. Wink

As far as this...

bucheon bum wrote:

Yup. Iran has been getting away with too much for too long. Enough is enough. Syria too.

I did not mean to neglect Syria. I am glad to see that, at least according to this fragment of behind-the-scenes discussion, neither W. Bush nor Blair are repeating my mistake...

Quote:

Bush: I think Condi is going to go pretty soon
Blair: But that's that's that's all that matters. But if you, you see it will take some time to get that together
Bush: Yeah, yeah
Blair: But at least it gives people...
Bush: It's a process, I agree. I told her your offer to...
Blair: Well...it's only if I mean... you know. If she's got a..., or if she needs the ground prepared as it were... Because obviously if she goes out, she's got to succeed, if it were, whereas I can go out and just talk
Bush: You see, the ... thing is what they need to do is to get Syria, to get Hezbollah to stop doing this shit and it's over
Blair: [inaudible]
Bush: [inaudible]
Blair: Syria
Bush: Why?
Blair: Because I think this is all part of the same thing
Bush: Yeah.
Blair: What does he think [Bashir Assad? -- g.]? He thinks if Lebanon turns out fine, if we get a solution in Israel and Palestine, Iraq goes in the right way...
Bush: Yeah, yeah, he is sweet
Blair: He is honey. And that's what the whole thing is about. It's the same with Iraq
Bush: I felt like telling Kofi to call, to get on the phone to Bashad [Bashir Assad] and make something happen
Blair: Yeah...

ddeubel

Joined: 20 Jul 2005

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:43 pm Post subject:

Quote:

The Arab Middle East does not tolerate and will not ever coexist with Israel. There has not been, is not now, and will never be any negotiating with them on this point.

Quote:

Thanks for the qualification, Bucheon.

I do count on you to straighten me out on some facts and details from time to time

Quote:

The Arab Middle East does not tolerate and will not ever coexist with Israel. There has not been, is not now, and will never be any negotiating with them on this point.

I would suggest Gopher, you need more than just a little qualification. If as you suggest the point is that other Arab states do not recognize the right of Israel to exist and that this is a reason for Israel to continue bombing and killing -- you are in a semantic neverneverland.

First, that point is irrelevant to the issue of Israel aggression. Killing for the sake of this semantic notion is ill.

Two. There has been much negotiation and behind the scenes agreement about the "recognition of Israel". Jordan and Egypt both have full diplomatic ties and have recognized Israel. (sorry Bucheon, wrong there..). Lebanon has explicitly agreed to the recognition of Israel in declarations. Please see http://americans-world.org/digest/regional_issues/IsraelPalestinians/arab.cfm
for a review the Arab League's own declaration recognizing Israel and offering peace. Further, the present bombardment (and yes, Hezbollah is bombarding - awful but it in NO WAY equates with Israeli brutality, weaponry), the present "hell raining down" (Olmert's words) was taken on the eve of implicit recognition of Israel by Hamas. How's that for peace process/????

The point is --- the present Israel actions are doing nothing to further peace. You have to be crazy to suppose otherwise and they are once again fertilizing hate and revenge and dyfunctional children. They are once again not looking after the security of Israel but only rather, ensuring more military handouts and rearming from America which has begun to dry up its military "freebies".

Call me simplistic but I am on the side of peace. Both sides have to see their own "devils" . What has the world come to??? I am saddened by all this and it is time that people stop standing in what Primo Levi called, "the grey zone" (The Drowned and the Saved, a great read on "evil"). I am reminded of the banality of evil of Arendt - that evil happens because no body speaks out and that evil is of those who act like statesmen and casually profess to "the need to" with a blank expression and in suit and tie. Call me simplistic but I will speak out against anyone arbitrarily killing or anyone so stupidly saying, "in my mind they had it coming....etc...", casually.

Quote:

Still, revealingly, while some Israelis recognize and lament this, there are no Arabs or Arab groups that I am aware of who have recognized or lamented their own terroristic campaigns and human rights abuses. This is because, for the most part, and with respect to Israel, they tend to be quite rabid.

Gopher , I suggest you are very ethnocentric. Rabid yourself. Labeling a whole people/religion such. Filtered through all you posts is the same undercurrent of the Muslim as slimy, greaseballed, bearded, rabid, bloodthirsty, child eating etc......The same characature Jews have had to bear for years and still do........Please become more aware of the "lively" debate in the Muslim world and that there is a lot of dissent and discussion about Arab terrorists, their actions. Here is another place to start besides those I've mentioned in previous posts. http://www.arab.de/arab-television.html

You are plain wrong and are like the IDF which prevents Al Jezzara from broadcasting news.... http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3276575,00.html

What about that great book of Mathew in the bible ? I am not Christian but these words ring true....the sermon on the mount is a seminal document when talking about "how we should live", as decent human beings. What about the blessed are the peacemakers??? Call me names but I am for the peacemakers......

Quote:

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.

4 Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

5 Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.

6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled.

7 Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God.

10 Blessed are those who have been persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.

11 "Blessed are you when people reproach you, persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:01 pm Post subject:

bucheon bum wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

bucheon bum wrote:

[
Israel has beating up Arabs for over 50 years now. It doesn't matter if its "beatdowns" were 100% justified, it is irrelevant. Just try to imagine getting your butt kicked day in and day out. Not fun right? Wouldn't that anger you? Make you want to return the beatdown? And just once won't do. No, you need to give it back 110%. And you become beat up so much that you don't have the energy to look at the big picture; all you can think of is that revenge.

.

Israel has only been able to survive by "beating up Arabs for over 50 years now." The slightest sign of weakness would have only encouraged more attacks.

Ah yes. Their harsh treatment of Palestinians was crucial to Israel's survival. The settlements? If not for them, Israel would have been adios by now.

Punishing the poor, disinfranchised Shi'ite of southern Lebanon 20 years ago was essential as well.

TUM, Israel helped nuture Hamas. Its invasion of Lebanon in 1982 led to the creation of Hizballah. Israel has hardly been an innocent actor during the past 50 years.

.

I was talking about the past fifty years. Not just one or two instances. Israel was attacked at it's inception and has been fighting for it's survival ever since. The people in charge may have felt brutal methods (fighting fire with fire) were the only chance. It seems to have validity. American soldiers stand a good chance of being killed out of hand when captured. The Israeli soldiers are still alive by all accounts.

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:33 am Post subject: Re: ...

Nowhere Man wrote:

Yes, stratfor is lord.

We had to attack Iraq.

It's just that simple.

Stratfor is better than Counterpunch.

The are accountable for what they write.

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:34 am Post subject:

Quote:

Two. There has been much negotiation and behind the scenes agreement about the "recognition of Israel". Jordan and Egypt both have full diplomatic ties and have recognized Israel. (sorry Bucheon, wrong there..). Lebanon has explicitly agreed to the recognition of Israel in declarations. Please see http://americans-world.org/digest/regional_issues/IsraelPalestinians/arab.cfm
for a review the Arab League's own declaration recognizing Israel and offering peace. Further, the present bombardment (and yes, Hezbollah is bombarding - awful but it in NO WAY equates with Israeli brutality, weaponry), the present "hell raining down" (Olmert's words) was taken on the eve of implicit recognition of Israel by Hamas. How's that for peace process/????

That preposal by the Arab league demanded right of return.

That wasn't a peace offer.

igotthisguitar

Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:53 am Post subject:

Bulsajo wrote:

The 'blame game' or 'who is the least/most cruel and inhumane in the conflict' is pretty much irrelevant here- Israel can't help but respond in the manner that it has, and has very little choice in its response.

While i essentially agree with your "blame game" remarks, to say the Israeli military "can't help but respond" in the fashion they have is pure poppycock.

I'm likely not alone when i say i literally cringe when i hear this catchphrase mindlessly repeated on CNN and the like.

Let's just back up a moment.

What "pretext" did they use for this aggressive & widespread bombardment? The kidnapping of the a handful of their soldiers.

Hezbollah's request? A prisoner exchange.

Israel's response? NO!!! WE'RE NOW WE'RE SIMPLY GONNA KILL KILL KILL !!! Yeah, that's sure to get our poor soldiers free.

What happened to negotiations & diplomacy? Why so immediately resort to engaging in widespead regional terror?

Clearly SOMEBODY WANTED WAR Twisted Evil

Given the body count that's arisen over the last week, they indeed appear to be a doing a mighty fine job of executing their plans.

What's especially distressful is how civilian pawns on ALL sides are being swept up in the midst of this bloody
C-O-C-K waving tempest.

Last edited by igotthisguitar on Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:03 am; edited 2 times in total

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:01 am Post subject:

Why ought israel release prisioners of a group that is dedicated to destroy Israel?

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:31 am Post subject:

igotthisguitar wrote:

[Hezbollah's request? A prisoner exchange.

Israel's response? NO!!! WE'RE NOW WE'RE SIMPLY GONNA KILL KILL KILL !!! Yeah, that's sure to get our poor soldiers free.

.

Israel has a policy of non-negotiation with terrorists does it not?

I think that answers your questions with regards to negotiations. Like I said, Israel's tough response is likely why its soldiers (at last report) were still alive. If Israel acts like this, when its soldiers are kidnapped, people are going to think twice before actually killing them.

Junior

Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:33 am Post subject:

bucheon bum wrote:

Please try to shorten your links next time. much appreciated.

Ok. how do you do that exactly? Smile

bucheon bum

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:37 am Post subject:

type [url=link] whatever you want to write followed by [/url]

Bulsajo

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:38 am Post subject:

igotthisguitar wrote:

Bulsajo wrote:

We all know you're a moron, there's no need to flaunt it.
If you weren't such an idiot I'd tell you to read up on hezbollah, the Iran-Contra affair, etc.
I'm not absolving Israel of all responsibility and to repeat myself what I meant by the 'blame game' is: trying to determine who is 'more responsible' is a fool's game (which clearly explains your aptitude), but Hamas and Hezbollah clearly knew what sort of reaction their actions would provoke from Israel.

But there is still no escaping the fact that trying to have a rational discussion with you is like trying explain algebra to a hamster- you simply don't have the capacity for any real thoughts.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:50 am Post subject:

Ddeubel: just as you have pushed bin Laden's line earlier (that U.S. foreign policy is to blame for al Qaeda and 9/11), you are pushing Hezbollah's, Syria's, and Iran's line about how we ought to focus on "Israeli aggression" here. The world would be peaceful but for the bloodthirsty nature of the U.S. and Israel. Your motives are transparent. Deny it all you like: from the beginning you have stood with the terrorists and against Israel and the U.S. You share their worldview. Last edited by Gopher on Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:41 pm; edited 3 times in total

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