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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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 Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:29 am Post subject: |
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| I'm starting to follow Korean teacher ethics. torment the kids until they stay quiet. |
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Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:49 am Post subject: |
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| Anyone know how to access the articles Woland referenced? As far as I can tell, you need to purchase a membership or access it from an approved university library. Seems a bit impossible, from my standpoint, unless I want to pay $45 to subscribe to TESOL Quarterly. Hmm.. not a bad idea actually, but is there another option? |
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:07 am Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
I went away from whether it is harmful or not, right or wrong a long time ago. Learn to read [/b]. I can't believe how dense you and Huffdaddy are. I have said in my last 3 posts "I am not discussing if it is right or wrong or harmful, just that most schools hire you with the understanding that you will leave opinions out of the classroom (as the Canadian BEd emphsizes this for sure, from four sources). I am not even talking about being teachers anymore, just employees. Your customers, ie parents, are not expecting you to bring your opinions up in class. 100%, if your kid came home and said that the teacher said, "Well, my teacher says parents can be wrong sometimes and I should make my own decisions. I shouldn't always listen to what you say." You would be on the phone in less than a minute. I can think of many, many more "teacher opinions" that if they were brought up you would not be happy.
Do you get it? Just incase, even though you have proved that a graduate degree does not make you smarter though it does give you a much larger ego, I AM NOT ARGUING IF IT IS HARMFUL, JUST FROM AN EMPLOYEE POINT OF VIEW, YOU ARE GOING OUTSIDE BOUNDARIES INSIDE THE COMPANY OF WHAT IS EXPECTED OF YOU. |
My apologies for misreading you. I don't disagree with you that one can be fired for violating a contract. That seems an uninteresting observation to me. I had a friend once who was fired from a Berlitz school for not using Berlitz method as required explicitly in his contract, and in a strictly legal sense, his firing was justified. What is interesting is why he felt compelled to violate that clause of his contract, which he did because he felt he better served his students by using another approach to teaching them certain aspects of Italian. What is also interesting is why the employer felt compelled to include such a methodological restriction in the contract. The clash between the beliefs in that case is essentially a moral one, and quite rare in that it was so explicit.
However, the things that you are claiming people can be fired for are generally not explicit in a contract. What is this expression of opinion? Are you referring to only expression off religious and political beliefs? To favorite foods? I find it hard to imagine a contract that could express exactly enough which opinions are okay and which are forbidden. And that is why my quote from Johnston is relevant. So often these things are implicit and clashes become clear only in the aftermath of action. (And, yes, I acknowledge, you can still get fired for them).
| satori wrote: |
Here's the first four items of the teachers code of ethics...
1.1
The foreign language/second language teacher shall give foremost consideration to the students' well being.
1.2
The foreign language/second language teacher shall direct his/her whole professional effort to assist the students to develop his/her second language speaking ability.
1.3
The foreign language/second language teacher shall foster in his/her students, honesty, integrity, and consideration for others and shall do nothing, by precept or example, to discredit these qualities.
1.4
The foreign language/second language teacher shall act, and shall be seen to act, with justice and fairness.
Each of those four items if considered deeply and seriously all prohibit the expression of opinion in the classroom... |
I can agree in general with these four statements (except maybe with the emphasis on speaking over other, perhaps, equally valuable skills), but I don't think any of them lead necesarily to the conclusion you draw.
I don't dispute that you believe what you believe. But I disagree that it is anywhere an explicit principle of teaching. As I noted above, I don't see it written into any contracts in any degree of detail.
What I do believe about the prinicples you cite is that they require us to think about what we are doing in terms of benefit for students, make decisions, and act on them. The nub of the matter is that in so many cases, we act without definite foreknowledge of what effect we will have. That ambiguity is also part of what makes teaching moral action. (As an aside, I would worry more about teachers who refuse to think about their actions than about those with strong opinions I disagree with.)
I believe that we necessarily bring our beliefs about teaching and learning, about what is right and wrong, beneficial and harmful, good and bad for our students into the classroom. There is no escape from it and we must think about it consciously and conscientiously because these beliefs do shape our practices.
Let me recommend another resource for thinking about this:
Buzzelli, C. A., & Johnston, B. (2002). The Moral Dimensions of Teaching: Language, Power, and Culture in Classroom Interaction. London: RoutledgeFalmer.
In particular, you may want to look at a section entitled The Moral Nature of Classroom Interaction (pp. 12-14), which discusses three distinct ways in which classroom interaction is essentially moral. It has very much shaped what I've written above. I'll give a few sample quotes here:
"Teachers continually make judgements about what to teach and how to teach, and such judgements involve deeply held beliefs and values that can be, and often are, distinct from those of other stakeholders in the educational process, such as principles and parents. These are judgements about what is valuable and worthwhile for children to know, do, and experience" (p. 12-13).
Again, no disagreement that such differences can lead to termination. But I hold to the point that these possible differences cannot all be predetermined and thus excluded from practice.
"When teachers engage students in classroom interactions based upon personal and professional values and beliefs, the do so within a context of great complexity and, at times, great ambiguity. Both the complexity and the ambiguity are due, in part, to not knowing exactly how decisions and actions will affect students" (p. 13).
"The constant negotiation within onself and with students concerning the enactment of teaching practices and curriculum must always be undertaken with a concern for how children are treated... Thus, in many different ways, the relations created and enacted between teachers and students are a source of moral meaning for both and contribute to the sense eaach has of how they are treated by the other" (p. 14).
Satori, Laogaiguk, I think if all three of us saw each other teach, we would probably not find that much difference in our practices in the area nder discussion. I hope I've made it clear in other places here that I disapprove of the kind of behavior fiveeagles appears to be carrying out. I appreciate how strongly both of you feel about this issue and how it represents what you have taken from your training. My perspective is somewhat different, but ultimately, hopefully, pointed in the same direction and I hope you can get some appreciation of it from what I've written here. |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:18 am Post subject: |
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| Woland wrote: |
Satori, Laogaiguk, I think if all three of us saw each other teach, we would probably not find that much difference in our practices in the area nder discussion. I hope I've made it clear in other places here that I disapprove of the kind of behavior fiveeagles appears to be carrying out. I appreciate how strongly both of you feel about this issue and how it represents what you have taken from your training. My perspective is somewhat different, but ultimately, hopefully, pointed in the same direction and I hope you can get some appreciation of it from what I've written here. |
Where? Please address where you stated that you disagree. You mentioned that I skirted the issue of boundaries, which I don't think I did. Qinella conviently dismissed himself from the discussion after laying down his conclusions, so if you would like to pick up the thread; by all means do.
Last edited by fiveeagles on Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| Huffdaddy, you are still talking about right and wrong. Either you are incapable of basic reading or incapable of keeping on topic. I am not talking about right or wrong. This conversation, as the one with FiveEagles, is finished. I will say my sister, friend and cousin are PROFESSIONAL teachers, unlike you, and all agree with me, Satori, and everyone else except for a fundi Christian and you. I have no need to continue this conversation. |
You remind me of the waterboy when you made this quote.
My mama says, electricity is of the devil!
Does your sister and friend say that fundis are of the devil too?  |
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Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
| Woland wrote: |
Satori, Laogaiguk, I think if all three of us saw each other teach, we would probably not find that much difference in our practices in the area nder discussion. I hope I've made it clear in other places here that I disapprove of the kind of behavior fiveeagles appears to be carrying out. I appreciate how strongly both of you feel about this issue and how it represents what you have taken from your training. My perspective is somewhat different, but ultimately, hopefully, pointed in the same direction and I hope you can get some appreciation of it from what I've written here. |
Where? Please address where you stated that you disagree. You mentioned that I skirted the issue of boundaries, which I don't think I did. Qinella conviently dismissed himself from the discussion after laying down his conclusions, so if you would like to pick up the thread; by all means do. |
Nah, I didn't dismiss myself from the conversation. I allowed you the opportunity to have the last word, thought. At some point, discussions must come to an end. When it takes me over 30 minutes to make a post, that's usually when I call it quits. |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| Qinella wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
| Woland wrote: |
Satori, Laogaiguk, I think if all three of us saw each other teach, we would probably not find that much difference in our practices in the area nder discussion. I hope I've made it clear in other places here that I disapprove of the kind of behavior fiveeagles appears to be carrying out. I appreciate how strongly both of you feel about this issue and how it represents what you have taken from your training. My perspective is somewhat different, but ultimately, hopefully, pointed in the same direction and I hope you can get some appreciation of it from what I've written here. |
Where? Please address where you stated that you disagree. You mentioned that I skirted the issue of boundaries, which I don't think I did. Qinella conviently dismissed himself from the discussion after laying down his conclusions, so if you would like to pick up the thread; by all means do. |
Nah, I didn't dismiss myself from the conversation. I allowed you the opportunity to have the last word, thought. At some point, discussions must come to an end. When it takes me over 30 minutes to make a post, that's usually when I call it quits. |
Actually, I thought you made some good points. I just wanted to tease you a bit.  |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
And refering to your teacher training is not necessarily indicative of what or what is not allowed by most employers / schools.
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Quite right, but it is indicative of the current values in educational academia and shows the way new teachers are being trained. That might take a while to work it`s way down to operational procedures at the individual school level. I never said it was law, I said it was the recommended practice and the ethical path to take. |
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