Korean Job Discussion Forums

[own_king]

Yeah use whatever tactic works best for you and of course I am not a madman constantly throwing kids, bookbags, and Korean teachers down the hall. Often kindness is the way to go, which is usually what I do. But this situation calls for a more drastic approach. Like I said I have had some success, because the class sure quiets down after - it doe smake an impact. What you said about being a student's friend is sometimes true, once you have the class under control, but remember you are a teacher first. I can't remember any of my friends calling me a pig or throwing stuff at me. I sure wouldn't be ravishing gifts on them at any rate.

[Kenny Kimchee]

I�m starting to wonder if this isn�t a troll, since OP posted this several days ago and hasn�t commented since; still, it�s a good discussion and I�d like to get my two cents in�

OP: You taught kids every day for three months and they didn�t even learn the alphabet? I�m sorry, but the problem is probably you, not the students. My math is pretty bad, but 50 minutes/day X 5 days/week X 12 weeks = 50 hours of instruction. Give me 50 hours of teaching time, a decent textbook, and the freedom to use outside materials and I�ll give you students with a basic grasp of phonics/phonemic awareness, a lot of sight words, the ability to sound out unfamiliar one-syllable words, and the ability to ask and answer simple questions.

Back to the general discussion: I agree with the King on this one. I�ve learned the hard way that you must be your students� teacher first and their friend second; this is true in any teaching situation (e.g. back in the West) but is especially true in Confucian societies. Like someone else said, children are basically like animals � they respect authority and will tear you apart if they detect weakness. Who do little boys look up to? Athletes, superheroes, action stars � men of strength, power, and confidence.

I�m not some kind of humorless hardass; I always smile, I love to act silly, I�ll sing �Busy, Busy, Busy� from Let�s Go 3 at the top of my lungs � but I also demand (and earn) respect. No one may talk while others are speaking and everyone must pay attention, do their homework, and try their hardest. I�ve had many students who hated me at first, but I stood my ground and laid down the law, and they came to respect and love me.

The OP�s basic problem is a lack of respect; his students don�t respect him - worse, they have contempt for him (and he apparently has contempt for them). This class is probably unsalvageable, as few human relationships can weather contempt, and it�s almost impossible to gain or re-gain the respect of students once you�ve lost it.

As I mentioned earlier, I�ve learned these lessons the hard way (as you guys have, I�m sure). When I first went to Korea in 2001 I had no teaching experience and didn�t know how to control a classroom. I worked illegally at various hagwons for three months (I know � bad, bad, bad) until I found a good permanent position; this was good for me, because it gave me a chance to figure out how to teach and manage students. I tried the nice guy routine with the part time jobs and found that it didn�t work, so when I started my full time job I came in as the hardass. It�s possible to be a disciplinarian and then turn around and be a nice guy, but it�s not possible to do the reverse.

As much as I hate to become a grownup, I�m afraid that at my next job I will have the students address me as �Mr. Kimchee� and not �Kenny.� Korean (and Japanese) students don�t address their Korean/Japanese teachers by their first name (neither did we when we were in school), so why should they address us by our first names? For the past three years, I�ve taught in middle schools in Japan. I made the mistake of allowing the students to address me by my first name and I think that I lost some respect by doing this. When the students greeted their Japanese teachers in the hall they�d say �Konnichiwa� (Hello) and bow, but when they�d greet me they�d say �Ya, Kenny� (Yo, Kenny). I think that this lack of respect outside the classroom translated to a lessening of respect inside it. Of course, I must earn the respect of my students, but it�s impossible to get this respect if I don�t demand it from them at the outset.

[riley]

I'm currently teaching at an elementary school so I have classes of around 40 students, not quite the same as the OP, but maybe I have some ideas.
First, avoid yelling very often. It loses the impact. I only yell to get the kids' attention and generally it's one word like "kids", "hey" or something. Generally I start by being quiet and raising my hand and making the students raise their hand and be quiet. If there is a kid or two who are slow, I am snapping my fingers towards them to get their attention and have other students know who the problem is. If necessary, I have taken away break time from the classes.
Another reason not to yell, is that if you lower your voice and make it sound cold and quiet, I think the students know that you're angry and will take it more seriously. It sounds scarier. Also, and I might get flamed, but when women raise their voice and yell, it can sound like a screech and just makes the kids know that the teacher has lost control. That doesn't help.
With students who are goofing off, make sure they know what you want, (be quiet, take out the notebook/homework/pencil) and then count down from five with your fingers. It has always worked for me. No yelling, just counting, can really get them moving.
I'm surprised nobody noticed the age of the OP's students, older elementary kids and middle schoolers. C'mon, that age group is always difficult. The OP is having trouble having them talk/give answers. Well, maybe they're shy. It's difficult at that age to stand out from the herd and take a chance. Especially when they think it may be wrong. If I can, I try to walk around and check their work and then tell the student it's correct and have that student give out the answer. If it's wrong, I quietly help them and then have the student give out the correct answer. Basically, give them a feeling of safety.
Don't forget to walk around the classroom. That way you know what the students are really doing. So many times I've been surprised to find out that the students are actually playing and not writing.
Finally, write on the board. The one thing my second job taught me that was useful, write it on the board and get the students to write it down. It will help them, reading is easier than listening.

[Yu_Bum_suk]

There have been some really good ideas posted above, but if a hogwan director or supervisor comes along and undermines you such ideas are useless. Good luck.

[Cerriowen]

Sorry been busy, that's why I haven't responded.

I wasn't the only person teaching these kids. The way the school worked they rotated through four different teachers. Each teacher had them for 1 hour 2x a week.

*All* of the teachers tried to help them learn the alphabet. We got together and brainstormed on how the heck to get it through to them. Each day one of us assigned them homework of writing out the alphabet.

They just didn't care. None of us could get them to talk at all.

I tried candy (suckers, chocolate, etc). I tried games. I tried prizes. I even bought Pizza.

I didn't even think it was possible for kids not to react to those things. I think they were just too tired. They'd just sit there with a glazed expression and refuse to do *anything*

The other teachers just said they gave up and were just delivering the lecture. If the kids didn't listen, it wasn't their fault.

I hated that. I wanted really badly to connect to the kids. It just wouldn't happen.

The hogwan owner didn't like my tactics and was constantly berating me in front of the kids... telling me I was doing a bad job. I needed to do something different. But never told me WHAT.

[Yu_Bum_suk]

[Qinella]

What you need is Super Nanny to come straighten these kids out!




Seriously, though, if the director is degrading you in front of the students, it's probably a hopeless situation. I'd jump ship.

[PaperTiger]

What the heck kind of people do you work with? They just stand idly by while you have to brook disrespect, insults, and contempt? Sounds like no one there is giving you any form of support (must be SLP...what with all the photocopying you do).

Ever see Matt Groening's (creator of the Simpson's) series "Life in Hell"? It's in some ways a really good kids-eye view of different kinds of teachers and parents. Kids won't respect someone who just loves them unconditionally and never says boo...it has to be a mix of discipline and sincere appreciation. Kids know if you don't like kids, some of the worst ones have years of experience at being awful to teachers and other authority figures.

Yeah, you might wanta quit if no one is helping you out.

[stalinsdad]

I think that anyone who puts up with this type of behaviour must have very little self-esteem. I feel sorry for the OP but you need to take charge or get out quick, that's about 150 Koreans that you've managed to reinforce a negative despising attitude. Any others on here who baby sit in a similar way should also leave ASAP and leave it to people who know what they are doing.
Sorry

[own_king]

The worst thing is when a competent teacher gets stuck with these wonder classes after they've had some wishy-washy, push over, with no concept of discipline or any classroom management skills. I've been in this unenviable position a few times in my career and it's an uphill battle all the way. They go from some nimrod who just plays games and acts like a clown all the time, and then end up in my class who actually expects them to do some work and maybe even learn some English Of course, that goes over like lead balloons, but too bad. After all, I'm the professional here. Like I'm really gonna let myself get pushed around by a bunch of 12 year olds. I agree with stalinsdad here, if you can't or even worse won't take charge in your classroom, then take a sabbatical or choose a new career path, because you're not doing yourself, the kids, or your colleagues any favours. Oh, and just on a related side note, if any director ever tries to undermine your authority in front a class again, I hope you rip him a new one - right then and there. I've had to do it before and believe me, it won't happen again. The kids will also respect you more if they know that you're not even afriad of the hwanongnim or however the hell you spell it. You can only be bullied here if you really want to be.

[Cerriowen]

Errr... I guess I didn't make it clear in my original post...

I *quit* that job. I was wondering if it was normal behavior because if it was I didn't want to work with another group of elementary/middle school kids.

[Yu_Bum_suk]

[own_king]

Yeah, I guess it all depends on the luck of the draw. I've had some great experiences at hagwans in Korea. Now I know the vacation time of 10-14 days is pitiful, but I found the kids to be little farther up the evolutionary scale, and possess a higher level of English than some of the troglodytes I've heard and read about in Korean public schools. Not to mention that hagwans generally pay more as well. I think I'm one of the few that find hagwans (good hagwans - not an oxymoron) to be the job of choice in Korea, especially if you want a comfortable job, that doesn't usually require you to be up at the ass-crack of dawn to have a 20 minute chat session with your Korean co-teacher, who is so nice and cares so much to tell you how you can become a better teacher. She didn't go to school for two years and study English all throughout high school for nothing. I wouldn't even consider stepping foot into a class of 35 kids who have little or no exposure to English, with a scowling Korean teacher at the back taking notes like they're on some kind of which hunt. And then end up just sitting and talking to the one girl in the class who lived in America for about 12 years about how much she hates Korea. These aren't my experiences, but I know poeple who deal with this everyday. So, remember, no matter how bad your job is here - it can always be worse.