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rocklee
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 4:14 am Post subject: |
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In terms of hearing, everybody pick up things differently, some people are more sensitive than others. Those who work with sounds everyday have ears adjusted for that kind of work. Those who play mp3s everyday will have ears adjusted for that kind of sound (until the music starts to sound good according to the "trained" ears).
It is hard to explain it if you've never been there I guess.  |
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The Lemon
Joined: 11 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:37 am Post subject: |
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In terms of hearing, everybody pick up things differently, some people are more sensitive than others. Those who work with sounds everyday have ears adjusted for that kind of work. Those who play mp3s everyday will have ears adjusted for that kind of sound (until the music starts to sound good according to the "trained" ears).
It is hard to explain it if you've never been there I guess." |
I guess.
But I don't believe I know many people who could accurately pick out - in a double blind test - a 320k MP3 piece from an uncompressed audio file of a given piano piece, using whatever reference system you choose. And this includes a large number of people I know who "have ears adjusted for that kind of work".
I probably could find some people who would claim to be able to, however.
To move this beyond claims on a message board and into real attempts at scientific tests, have a look at this article from six years ago, where a German magazine rounded up some of that country's top audio professionals and did such a test, with 256k mp3s - not even 320k (and MP3 encoders have improved since then...). A few people could descern differences in some cases, but none of them could do it every time.
From their conclusion:
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| But when deciding between 256 kbps encoded MP3s and the original CD, no difference could be determined, on average, for all the pieces. The testers took the 256 kbps samples for the CD just as often as they took the original CD samples themselves. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:21 am Post subject: ... |
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I'll up the ante.
I was on a website where a guy is taking a black marker and putting around the dge and putting a big X on top of the CD to give it a warmer sound.
Anybody heard of that?
I'm not really an audiophile, but I do have a Creative Extigy external sound card from about 2002 laying around. Is that still a sound piece of equipment? (No pun intended) |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:45 am Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
I'll up the ante.
I was on a website where a guy is taking a black marker and putting around the dge and putting a big X on top of the CD to give it a warmer sound.
Anybody heard of that? |
Oh yeah. I've heard of that. And worse!!
Some audiophiles would keep their CD's in their freezer. The idea being that the tiny pits on the disc would contract into a more defined pit. BS of course.
When I worked briefly in Japan I found myself in the midst of a hard-core audiophile cult. Well, 3 nerdy guys actually. They hung around in the high-end hi-fi store near where I worked.
These guys would try anything!!!
I remember going to one of their homes and watching them place dishtowels in strategic places near and under the speakers. I had to nod and agree that it sounded better here or there!!
This guy had his speaker cables up off the floor by about 2 inches on little Lego bridges!!! About 10 little Lego bridges for each cable!!
They had awesome systems of course. 10,000 dollar amps. 20,000 dollar speakers. But they didn't really seem to enjoy listening to the music (mostly classical). They were more into improving the sound. I doubt they ever just sat back and enjoyed the music. |
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SirFink
Joined: 05 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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[quote="eamo"]
| Nowhere Man wrote: |
These guys would try anything!!!
I remember going to one of their homes and watching them place dishtowels in strategic places near and under the speakers. I had to nod and agree that it sounded better here or there!! |
I've been a musician for many years and I've seen similar things in recording studios. It's the other side of the coin, I suppose. I've seen studio engineers spend hours trying to get the perfect snare drum sound by placing foam rubber, towels, tape, coins, etc. in a hundred different places. Then they spend another two hours trying every microphone and microphone cable in the studio... and they're still not satisfied with the tone!  |
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tweeterdj
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Location: Gwangju
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| Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:34 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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[quote="sirfink]
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I've been a musician for many years and I've seen similar things in recording studios. It's the other side of the coin, I suppose. I've seen studio engineers spend hours trying to get the perfect snare drum sound by placing foam rubber, towels, tape, coins, etc. in a hundred different places. Then they spend another two hours trying every microphone and microphone cable in the studio... and they're still not satisfied with the tone! |
that's about an hour and a half past the time you try a different room, or different kit, or find another engineer. if you can't hear right away that what you're trying isn't working, you don't know what you're doing. trying to be too perfect is just as bad as not caring at all. |
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The Lemon
Joined: 11 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:17 am Post subject: |
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Or, as I've experienced more than a few times in my life, the engineer/producer/studio is charging a fortune per hour for all the toying around to "get the perfect kick drum" sound. And they never took too kindly to me mumbling in the back, "can't we just trigger a sample?"
It was always disheartening how hours/days could be spent on micing a drum kit, but when it came time for my grand piano to be set up, "plink" - "Ok, thank you, piano's fine.. so let's go back to the kick drum (thump thump thump)..."
| Nowhere Man wrote: |
I'll up the ante.
I was on a website where a guy is taking a black marker and putting around the dge and putting a big X on top of the CD to give it a warmer sound.
Anybody heard of that? |
This isn't exactly what you're talking about, but it displays the same lack of understanding of how CDs work:
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=24613 ("Cheap CDs sound bad...") |
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tweeterdj
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Location: Gwangju
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| Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| The Lemon wrote: |
Or, as I've experienced more than a few times in my life, the engineer/producer/studio is charging a fortune per hour for all the toying around to "get the perfect kick drum" sound. And they never took too kindly to me mumbling in the back, "can't we just trigger a sample?"
It was always disheartening how hours/days could be spent on micing a drum kit, but when it came time for my grand piano to be set up, "plink" - "Ok, thank you, piano's fine.. so let's go back to the kick drum (thump thump thump)..." |
i'll tell you what, it depends on what kind of music it is. if you're recording a hip-hop single, yeah that kick better sound thumpin. but again, if it takes you longer than an hour to get a decent sound that you can make work, you're going nowhere fast. engineers generally have their "go-to" mics and settings that they can set up fast and make tweaks to their delight within 20 minutes. And if the engineer's taking too long, tell him, "it's our money, make it good and let's get out of here". no engineer in his right mind would ever think to alienate his clients by wasting their time after they told him not to. |
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The Lemon
Joined: 11 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| if you're recording a hip-hop single, yeah that kick better sound thumpin |
Yes, but in that case you're nearly certainly using samples, not a live kick. And that REALLY shouldn't take long, if your samples are well-organized.
Anyway, we're off topic, so let me pull it further off. I've heard salespeople dump all sorts of crazy BS on customers. I popped into a store a few years ago to pick up some VHS blanks. Grabbed some TDKs. Salesman: "Are you sure you don't want the BASF T-120s instead? They record in color and the audio's in stereo..."
| SirFink wrote: |
| I've seen studio engineers spend hours trying to get the perfect snare drum sound by placing foam rubber, towels, tape, coins, etc. in a hundred different places. Then they spend another two hours trying every microphone and microphone cable in the studio... and they're still not satisfied with the tone! |
I saw such things in the late 80s and early 90s. But it's inexcusable now, with thousands of insanely good samples just a trigger away. Unless you're Steely Dan.
And here's a major failing of modern sub/semi-pro musicians: they spend so much of their time and money toying with technology - computer workstations, compressors, mics, preamps, mixers, monitoring systems - but are utterly unable to compose a memorable melody or hook that would make anyone actually want to listen to the end product. They've been sucked into believing that gear can compensate for a lack of inspiration or talent. |
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rocklee
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| And here's a major failing of modern sub/semi-pro musicians: they spend so much of their time and money toying with technology - computer workstations, compressors, mics, preamps, mixers, monitoring systems |
That's because sampling is extremely difficult to do. lets see you pull off a decent soundtrack just from using a computer
Been there done that, am no pro but don't pretend to be. |
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The Lemon
Joined: 11 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:49 am Post subject: |
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Please reread my post - you missed my point, which was the 2nd half of the sentence that you didn't quote.
There's too much gear lust and futzing with the tools (hardware or software, I wasn't drawing a distinction) instead of working on the music itself: melodies, lyrics, and performances.
You can see this for yourself on the internet. Go to Reasonstation or some other similar site where people display their creations to be reviewed and rated by others - there are many. The gear they have is wonderful, the production skills are also great. But very very few of them can compose a memorable melody that a listener will be singing in their head for days. |
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tweeterdj
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Location: Gwangju
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| The Lemon wrote: |
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| if you're recording a hip-hop single, yeah that kick better sound thumpin |
Yes, but in that case you're nearly certainly using samples, not a live kick. And that REALLY shouldn't take long, if your samples are well-organized. |
i don't know about that, some hip-hop producers and most r&b producers (and i mean real producers with an actual album to their credit, not the guys you find on soundclick.com ) use live drums. a lot of times they overlay a live kick with a very processed sample sidechained in. admitedly, some stuff you hear is definitely sampled, but for the r&b stuff, like most music, there's just no replacement for a live kit. unless you have an engineer who REALLY knows what he's doing with a sample station. i know a producer back in Canada who does almost all of his drums via midi, and i can tell. he's pretty good at it, but you can still tell.
and you're right we are off topic...  |
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rocklee
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| The Lemon wrote: |
Please reread my post - you missed my point, which was the 2nd half of the sentence that you didn't quote.
There's too much gear lust and futzing with the tools (hardware or software, I wasn't drawing a distinction) instead of working on the music itself: melodies, lyrics, and performances.
You can see this for yourself on the internet. Go to Reasonstation or some other similar site where people display their creations to be reviewed and rated by others - there are many. The gear they have is wonderful, the production skills are also great. But very very few of them can compose a memorable melody that a listener will be singing in their head for days. |
Ever heard of MOD/S3M/XM? That is computer generated sampling put together by people just like the ones on reasonstation (been around for years). Some musicians have even become pros (DJ Yan, Crystal Method, Cirrus etc). I will bet they're all using a far more dedicated setup than what they were using simply because they sound much better.
Put it this way, you can be an outstanding pianist, violinist, drummer whatever, but if the music can't be amplified or mixed correctly while playing with accompany voices and instruments then you would simply be drowned out.
tweeterdj, I agree, but the same goes for classical and rock. |
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