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philipjames
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
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 Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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Someone mentioned allocating blame for the Troubles. The blame clearly belongs on the shoulders of republicans. Each and every demand of the civil rights movement had been addressed by 1970. The IRA's campaign didn't kick in until later that year. THey killed their first soldier in January 1971. There war had nothing to do with civil rights. It was a nasty etho-confessional war of the worst kind. Shooting up churches and Orange halls, bombing cenotaphs and shops full of Saturday shoppers - all in an effort to deny Ulster Protestants their right to self-determination.
Shame on Irish nationalists for voting for the IRA's political party. Shame on the Irish Republic for harbouring IRA fugitives. |
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drumpounder
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Can't we all just get along? |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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Call me all stuffy and academic but I prefer to get my history from better sources than paramilitary wall murals!!
Irishjen......
I sympathise with your complaint about how the British media tend to be London-centric.
As for both UK and the Irish Republic not wanting anything to do with N.I......well, I don't know for sure, but I would guess if there was a referendum tomorrow in the Irish Republic on unifying Ireland, then, you would probably see a big vote in favour.
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| We're stuck in our own little bubble, and the sooner we realise that self-government is the only way forward, the better (and yes, Ian, that does mean talking to Gerry). |
Good point.
I'm not sure self-government can work while Paisley's DUP are getting so much votes for not talking to Gerry!!! You know, I don't know if it's stubborn childishness or if the DUP are correct in assuming that if they talk to Sinn Fein then they will lose millions of votes just like the UUP did.
Remember, in 1998 David Trimble was riding high. Leader of the biggest party in N.I. Winner of a Nobel Peace Prize!! Then crash!! I guess the loyalists of N.I. were not ready to share power with people who used to be in the IRA. I can understand that actually. But times are changing real fast. The IRA is becoming a thing of history. Everybody in N.I. has to get out of this war mentality and look at examples like South Africa where ex-'terrorists' went on to become respected statesmen. |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| philipjames wrote: |
Someone mentioned allocating blame for the Troubles. The blame clearly belongs on the shoulders of republicans. Each and every demand of the civil rights movement had been addressed by 1970. The IRA's campaign didn't kick in until later that year. THey killed their first soldier in January 1971. There war had nothing to do with civil rights. It was a nasty etho-confessional war of the worst kind. Shooting up churches and Orange halls, bombing cenotaphs and shops full of Saturday shoppers - all in an effort to deny Ulster Protestants their right to self-determination.
Shame on Irish nationalists for voting for the IRA's political party. Shame on the Irish Republic for harbouring IRA fugitives. |
You seem to be really unsure whether to connect the history of Ireland to 2000 years ago or 35 years ago. You can't pick up Irish history from 1970 and portion out blame for what happend after that year. It's all connected! I thought that's what you were saying earlier in this thread?
Oh. What is etho-confessional? Never heard that one. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| sekki wrote: |
| Poor little Irish... like the Kiwis and Canadians - boo hoo - you have a better, far more advanced brother - tears for you ㅠㅠ |
Ah, a new troll on the block!
And yet a timid one, I see- too afraid to go all out and call himself shibbal kae sekki? |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Reading this thread is the first time I have seen anyone attempt to use the existence of the Scotti as evidence that Northern Ireland is not Irish. Surely, if you're going to make claims based on ancient history, that would mean Scotland belongs to Ireland? But that wouldn't suit anyone's political agenda and would be thrown out of court right away for being ridiculous. |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| Reading this thread is the first time I have seen anyone attempt to use the existence of the Scotti as evidence that Northern Ireland is not Irish. Surely, if you're going to make claims based on ancient history, that would mean Scotland belongs to Ireland? But that wouldn't suit anyone's political agenda and would be thrown out of court right away for being ridiculous. |
True.
I think what the poster who claimed Ulster was Scottish was trying to do was give more historical legitimacy to the current state of Northern Ireland. I think it's clear he failed to do that.
When a nation of people feel threatened (like N.I. Protestants) they will tend to create an historical construct which suits their agenda just as Privateer said. Of course, N.I. Catholics have been guilty of the same thing in the past. Both groups tend to stick their fingers in their ears when they hear something contrary to what the heard on Grandpa's knee as a child.
I think Koreans do the same thing. They make "Korea No.1!!" and "Korea is always picked on!!" un-challangeable facts. No one is allowed to burst the bubble. To do so would be un-patriotic. |
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Bingo
Joined: 22 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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Nationalist/Republican/Catholic leaders of last 35 years.
Gerry Fitt (Scottish)
Gerry Adams (Scottish)
Austin Currie (Scottish)
Bobby Sands (Scottish)
Danny Morrison (Scottish)
Denis Donaldson (Scottish)
Mary Lou MacDonald (Scottish)
Martin McGuinness (Scottish)
John Hume (Scottish)
And those are just the names of the 'Irish' crowd. Haven't started with the Paisleys, Irvines, etc... |
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philipjames
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.arts.ulster.ac.uk/ulsterscots/bib_400-1500.htm
The point, at the end of the day, is this. Even if Ulster were fully, purely, incontestibly 101% Irish that would in no way imply a united Ireland. One cannot assume that, had a Scot never set foot in Ulster, that the north of Ireland would be part of a united Ireland. Austria is not part of Germany. Nor Belgium part of France. Nor Norway part of Sweden. Nor Switzerland divided up and parcelled out to Italy, France and Germany. There is no certainty that the Ulster-Scots presence is the only factor dividing Ireland. As far back as the Tain (1st century) Ulster was at serious odds with the South. Ulster Catholics, one could argue, could have maintained a distinct identity if Protestants hadn't arrived in such numbers as to reinforce Ulster Catholics' cultural affiliations with the South. The 7th century plantation was a Reformation settlement on Counter-Reformation soil.
Hightened religious emotions forged cultural links that might otherwise never have blossomed. |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| sekki wrote: |
| Poor little Irish... like the Kiwis and Canadians - boo hoo - you have a better, far more advanced brother - tears for you ㅠㅠ |
Classic  |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| Irelands age old rivalries will soon be insignificant as boatloads of immigrants arrive. maybe the Poles, morrocans, Tajiks and Uzbeks will paint their own murals all over Belfast? Welcome to the EU haha |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:40 am Post subject: |
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| Bingo wrote: |
Nationalist/Republican/Catholic leaders of last 35 years.
Gerry Fitt (Scottish)
Gerry Adams (Scottish)
Austin Currie (Scottish)
Bobby Sands (Scottish)
Danny Morrison (Scottish)
Denis Donaldson (Scottish)
Mary Lou MacDonald (Scottish)
Martin McGuinness (Scottish)
John Hume (Scottish)
And those are just the names of the 'Irish' crowd. Haven't started with the Paisleys, Irvines, etc... |
So? Don't you think it's possible Scottish men have been marrying into Irish Catholic families for 400 hundred years and possibly even before? These men of Scottish roots have married Catholic women and brought up their children in the Catholic church. Hey presto! Many Catholics have Scottish and English names.
No one said the Scottish haven't had a big impact on Ulster. Of course they have!!! Tens of thousands of them immigrated to Ulster in the 17thC plantation!! Of course there's going to be Scottish and English names all over the place. Ulster was colonised!
Actually, now that I think about it, your point is really useless.
Isn't McGuinness an Irish name? Originally Meginnis.
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| In Irish the name is MagAonghusa, i.e. son of Angus. They are descended from Saran, chief of Dal Araidhe in St. Patrick's time and thence to Eochaidh Cobha of Iveagh, County Down. Like the chiefs of many of the great Irish septs Magennis took advantage of the English policy of "surrender and regrant" warly in the seventeenth century; earlier they were often at loggerheads with the ecclesiatical authorities and they showed a tendency to accept the tenets of the Reformation; |
http://www.mcguinnessonline.com/mcfamily/name.htm
According to this link and a couple of others I quickly looked at it seems that the Meginnis family were known of in the Ulster area since St. Patricks time. Many of the family nobility accepted British rule and protestantism after the 17thC plantation but soon turned back to being Irish nationalists. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:51 am Post subject: |
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| Nice job in this thread Eamo, I like the way you are sticking to the facts... |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| philipjames wrote: |
http://www.arts.ulster.ac.uk/ulsterscots/bib_400-1500.htm
The point, at the end of the day, is this. Even if Ulster were fully, purely, incontestibly 101% Irish that would in no way imply a united Ireland. One cannot assume that, had a Scot never set foot in Ulster, that the north of Ireland would be part of a united Ireland. Austria is not part of Germany. Nor Belgium part of France. Nor Norway part of Sweden. Nor Switzerland divided up and parcelled out to Italy, France and Germany. There is no certainty that the Ulster-Scots presence is the only factor dividing Ireland. As far back as the Tain (1st century) Ulster was at serious odds with the South. Ulster Catholics, one could argue, could have maintained a distinct identity if Protestants hadn't arrived in such numbers as to reinforce Ulster Catholics' cultural affiliations with the South. The 7th century plantation was a Reformation settlement on Counter-Reformation soil.
Hightened religious emotions forged cultural links that might otherwise never have blossomed. |
Well...and....what is your point?
You mean that in some imaginary alternative history of Ireland the indigenous Irish of the North might have formed their own little statelet to seperate themselves from the indigenous Irish of the South? Because thay had a few battles down through the ages?
Yeah. Sure. And Finn McCool might have not torn up the Giants Causeway which would mean there would still be a landbridge to Scotland!!!! Wow! That would really make Ulster Scottish. Why don't you try that one??!!
I think you have to come up with something better than that. Let's stick to real history and leave the 'what-if's' to idle pub talk. |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
| Nice job in this thread Eamo, I like the way you are sticking to the facts... |
I try mate. I try. |
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