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philipjames
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
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 Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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Anthropology, geography, literature and archaeology all reinforce the Scotland-Ulster link long before (long, long before) the 17th century plantations.
I'll state it again. The migration of the 17th century was simply the latest movement of peoples between Scotland and Ulster. It simply continued a trend reaching back to pre-history. To begin looking at Ulster's Scottish links in the 17th century suits nationalist interests, depicting the Scots as Johnie-come-latelies. The fact say otherrwise. Migration between Scotland and Ulster are ancient.
http://www.qub.ac.uk/schools/SchoolofAnthropologicalStudies/Research/MusicMakinginBelfast/Ulster-ScotsFolkOrchestra/Ulster-ScotsHistoryCulture/ |
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Grimalkin
Joined: 22 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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Ok I read it thoroughly philipjames and you know what....
I can see a great argument being made that the border should not have been drawn as such in 1922 seperating northern and southern Ireland but should have been drawn seperating England and Scotland creating a Greater Ireland (consisting of Scotland and Ireland) and a Lesser Britain (consisting of England and Wales). Looks like Collins was a worse negotiator than was thought (they shoulda shot him twice  ).
The point that I'm really trying to make is that that particular version of history can be interpreted to make any number of different claims all of equal validity.
It doesn't take away from the point that there are two distinct (by their own perception) populations sharing the one territory who need to get on with each other. If the loyalists could wean themselves off their dependance on Britain and the republicans off their dependance on the Irish republic and started communicating with each other it would be a lot better for both sides. Once they've learnt to get along they could then decide who, if anyone they want to affiliate themselves with.
For God's sake forget your ancestors and think of your children! |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:15 am Post subject: |
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| Grimalkin wrote: |
or are you arguing that the citizens of the ten new EU member states are really long lost Irishmen returning (like the scotti apparently did to Ulster  ). |
Certainly a large part of the immigration has been Americans and others of irish ancestry returning. The other non EU immigrants have taken on the DDD jobs and elevated the irish to a more comfortable existence. A bit like korea thriving on all its Bangladeshi factory workers.
Quote Crystal
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| The fact is though that no country, especially one as small as Ireland, can sustain such a high level of inward migration. |
But they sure managed to sustain unrivalled outward migration. millions and millions. Just like Korea. italy's another similar case. When it comes time to return the favor they don't want to Know. Although there are irish living in virtually every other country on earth, it doesn't go both ways.
Italians
We are God's chosen race, the hottest sexiest people in the world. We have the best fashion and cuisine. We have spread to every other country, there are millions of Italians in America, Australia, and everywhere else, but we don't like any foreigners coming into our country.
We are a homogenous xenophobic nation.
Irish
We are God's chosen race, the hottest sexiest people in the world. We have the best humour and are the bravest. We have spread to every other country, there are millions of Irish in America, Australia, and everywhere else, but we don't like any foreigners coming into our country.
We are a homogenous xenophobic nation.
Koreans
We are God's chosen race, the hottest sexiest people in the world. We have the best cellphones and are the most industrious. We have spread to every other country, there are millions of Koreans in America, Australia, and everywhere else, but we don't like any foreigners coming into our country.
We are a homogenous xenophobic nation.
See any similarities??? 
Without causing any offence... its time people dropped nationalism as their reason to live, its highly unnatractive. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| When it comes time to return the favor they don't want to Know |
No, they just do not want to be inundated with people from the third world. |
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ed4444
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| Certainly a large part of the immigration has been Americans and others of irish ancestry returning. The other non EU immigrants have taken on the DDD jobs and elevated the irish to a more comfortable existence. A bit like korea thriving on all its Bangladeshi factory workers. |
Where are you from Junior? You must be from some kind of Immigrants Utopia where they can immediately move into management jobs on arrival.
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Irish
We are God's chosen race, the hottest sexiest people in the world. We have the best humour and are the bravest. We have spread to every other country, there are millions of Irish in America, Australia, and everywhere else, but we don't like any foreigners coming into our country.
We are a homogenous xenophobic nation.
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If you can find one article or piece of Irish literature that defines Ireland as the chosen race that is not in jest, I would like to see it.
I would also like to see you prove that sources in Ireland have been going on about our country being homogenous. The history I studied in school was full of stories about Vikings, Normans, Anglo-Saxons and Celts migrating and moving around North East Europe.
You really are an incredible imbecile.
I criticise Bigverne's anti-muslim racism but at least he doesn't pull information strictly from his behind and post it online. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:32 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| When it comes time to return the favor they don't want to Know |
No, they just do not want to be inundated with people from the third world. |
Like these you mean?
The Irish diaspora consists of Irish emigrants and their descendants in countries such as the United States, the United Kingdom, Bermuda, Canada, Australia, Argentina, New Zealand, Mexico, South Africa and states of the Caribbean and continental Europe. The diaspora, maximally interpreted, contains over 80 million people.There are sizeable Irish communities in every EU member state as well as Argentina, Brazil, The United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_diaspora
Once again...millions of starving irish immigrants were welcomed into almost every other country on earth. But now that they've got a good standard of living themselves, they rush to deport any disadvantaged refugee looking for a better life on their shores. Italy and korea same story: one way traffic. inflict themselves on everyone else but don't tolerate anyone different in your own country.
Bigverne if you're still racist after living in korea, then you haven't learned the lesson of international travel: ie don't be prejudiced against foreigners, cos one day you'll be one yourself. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| ed4444 wrote: |
Where are you from Junior? |
I never say- in real life or online. I'm not defined by where I'm from, and nationalism is reprehensible to me. |
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ed4444
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:52 am Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| ed4444 wrote: |
Where are you from Junior? |
I never say- in real life or online. I'm not defined by where I'm from, and nationalism is reprehensible to me. |
Thats good. Then your ignorance won't stain the reputation of any country. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:57 am Post subject: |
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| Once again...millions of starving irish immigrants were welcomed into almost every other country on earth |
I would question the word 'welcomed'. They received quite a bit of hostility from the natives in many of the countries they immigrated to. They were allowed into countries that needed them for their own economic development at the time. Most of them went to the USA, a vast continental country that was actively encouraging immigration to populate its vast interior, and to help it industrialise. This is in no way comparable to the situation in Ireland today, a small country experiencing high levels of non-European immigration.
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| But now that they've got a good standard of living themselves, they rush to deport any disadvantaged refugee looking for a better life on their shores |
No, what Ireland has attempted to do is to reduce the number of people fraudulently claiming asylum and exploiting their lax nationality laws. Moreover, Ireland has allowed in many thousands of Eastern Europeans to live and work. It is childish nonsense to say that they have 'rushed to deport any disadvantaged refugee' or that they 'don't tolerate anyone different'. You have clearly never been to Ireland.
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| one way traffic. inflict themselves on everyone else but don't tolerate anyone different in your own country. |
Simplistic, ignorant nonsense. You may be true to some extent with Korea, which does indeed have very strict immigration laws, but Italy and Ireland have allowed in many foreigners. However, they recognise that it is not in the best interest of their nations to simply allow in anyone who turns up claiming asylum. You ignore the fact that both countries have granted thousands of people asylum already. Have you even been to Italy or Ireland?
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| Bigverne if you're still racist after living in korea |
Please point out where I have said anything racist, or indicated that I believe that some races are superior to others. Otherwise please refrain from such cheap insults.
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| then you haven't learned the lesson of international travel: ie don't be prejudiced against foreigners, cos one day you'll be one yourself. |
Actually, the lesson I learnt is 'when in Rome, do as the Romans'. The Koreans can enact laws which suit them, and other countries should do the same. If you wish to live abroad, live according to their laws and customs. The fact that millions of Koreans, Irish and Italians immigrated (mostly legally) in the past does not obligate them to enact immigration laws to 'repay the favour', especially when such immigration could be quite detrimental to their own interests. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Have you even been to Italy or Ireland? |
indeed i have, have you?
neither have "welcomed in lots of foreigners', as you maintain. The only foreigners i saw in Italy was myself and 3 Ghanaians selling trinkets for peanuts at the roadside. of course my gracious Italian host remarked "oh we don't like blacks here". hardly a cosmopolitan place. the simple fact that Italy is riven with racism is obvious to any black footballer stepping foot there.
ireland likewise has few immigrants.
All I'm saying is that the 3 countries i've highlighted have much in common, and could do with some colour to break down their massive nationalistic tendencies.
Italians, koreans and irish have all been economic migrants on a massive scale to everywhere else.
Now you're saying they should not accept immigrants into their own countries, because they're "economic migrants"???? |
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ed4444
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:54 am Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
indeed i have, have you?
neither have "welcomed in lots of foreigners', as you maintain. The only foreigners i saw in Italy was myself and 3 Ghanaians selling trinkets for peanuts at the roadside. of course my gracious Italian host remarked "oh we don't like blacks here". hardly a cosmopolitan place. the simple fact that Italy is riven with racism is obvious to any black footballer stepping foot there.
ireland likewise has few immigrants.
All I'm saying is that the 3 countries i've highlighted have much in common, and could do with some colour to break down their massive nationalistic tendencies.
Italians, koreans and irish have all been economic migrants on a massive scale to everywhere else.
Now you're saying they should not accept immigrants into their own countries, because they're "economic migrants"???? |
The only conclusion I can draw is that you are unable to distinguish foreigners or that you define foreigners are being ethnically different only.
Do you speak any European, African or Asian languages other than English? Would you recognise the differences? |
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crystal
Joined: 04 May 2006
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 3:56 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Junior"]
| bigverne wrote: |
| Have you even been to Italy or Ireland? |
indeed i have, have you?
ireland likewise has few immigrants.
[quote]
So you've been to Ireland. When may I ask was the last time you were there?? Ireland has changed a lot in the last ten years, hell in the last five years there have been huge changes in the amount of foreigners living in Ireland. When I was growing up it was a rare occurence to see any foreigner living in Ireland (excepting Dublin and some of the bigger cities). We welcomed in a huge number of asylum seekers. Ireland was one of only three countries in the EU to immediately allow in citizens of the accession states in 2004.
All they are doing now is trying to clamp down on the people seeking asylum without any legitimate grounds or people there illegaly. Why is this wrong? |
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Grimalkin
Joined: 22 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| ed4444 wrote: |
Where are you from Junior? |
I never say- in real life or online. I'm not defined by where I'm from, and nationalism is reprehensible to me. |
Zimbabwe? |
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