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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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 Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:24 am Post subject: |
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| In 25 words or less. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:27 am Post subject: |
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The Guardian carries a letter from John Pilger depicting Egypt as a wronged party in the Yom Kippur War of 1973. There's a time and a place for everything, and Pilger's eccentric historical interpretations are not the subject of this post. But one of the statements within the letter makes a curious juxtaposition with a story elsewhere in the same edition of the paper. Pilger writes:
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| According to [Jonathan] Freedland, the present Israeli regime is merely "a clumsy prizefighter driven to fury by a fly buzzing around its ears". His description of the entire Palestinian resistance as buzzing flies would be shocking if it did not accurately reflect Israeli racism, itself a virulent form of anti-semitism. |
You read that last clause right: Pilger is making an accusation not only of Israeli racism - a standard trope of the extreme Left - but also of Israeli anti-semitism. It's not a misprint: it's a libel he fully intends.
The reasoning behind Pilger's bizarre accusation is pure sophistry. It is common on the extreme Left, and it runs like this. Israelis complain about the prejudiced character of parts of the popular culture of the Arab world (for example, a television drama assuming the truth of the notorious Tsarist forgery the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion; Palestinian textbooks retailing venerable anti-Jewish libels). They are, according to the anti-Israel campaigners, being disingenuous however in levelling accusations of anti-semitism, because the Arabs themselves are a semitic people. How then could it possibly be true to describe the Palestinian Authority and other Arab groups as guilty of anti-semitism, when they are themselves semites? (This is presented as a rhetorical question and conversation-stopper, but it's generally followed, as in Pilger's letter, by accusations of Israeli racism, colonialism and manifold other sins of commission and omission.)
I'm no fan of Pilger's, but I think this calumny is the most egregious remark I've come across even from that source. What's wrong with it is that it reduces the suffering of the Jewish people - most obviously the attempt in the last century to kill every Jew in Europe, but a Judaeophobia that has lasted literally millennia - by means of semantic trickery. It is a historical accident that the term 'anti-semitism' exists at all, let alone is the common term for anti-Jewish prejudice. The term was coined only in the second half of the nineteenth century by a German anti-Jewish polemicist, Wilhelm Marr. Marr argued that western civilisation had been infiltrated by a pernicious Jewish influence, and he established his own Anti-Semitic League in 1871 to further his anti-Jewish demagoguery.
Ironically Marr, an extremist Jew-baiter, thereby invented a term that became standard as a label for anti-Jewish prejudice. Yet it's an intellectually idle and vacuous word as well as a euphemism. There is, after all, no such phenomenon as 'Semitism' to which one can be opposed. The destructive effect of the very term anti-Semitism can be discerned in Pilger's casual insults. If 'anti-semitism' doesn't mean prejudice specifically against Jews, then we have no immediately recognised term for that particular prejudice. Because the language we use about politics is crucial to the clarity of our thinking about a subject (I don't entirely endorse Orwell's views on language and politics, but I do this one), this softening of the specificity of anti-Jewish prejudice serves to anaesthetise our moral defences. It's a process that marked the history of the so-called German Democratic Republic, a prison-state that not only refused to accept any historical guilt for the Holocaust but was also a relentless source of anti-Jewish propaganda and anti-Israel agitation. |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:32 am Post subject: yes |
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I'm going to address this comment asap. You are dead wrong. See my sig, better get ready to call me more names.
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In any case, only neoNazis, other antisemites (like Igotthisguitar), some of the "conspiracy freaks" (like Igotthisguitar), and the Iranian president and his flatterers question or dispute the Holocaust or the six million figure.
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Better add Ilsanman to your list. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:32 am Post subject: |
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The term was coined only in the second half of the nineteenth century by a German anti-Jewish polemicist, Wilhelm Marr. Marr argued that western civilisation had been infiltrated by a pernicious Jewish influence, and he established his own Anti-Semitic League in 1871 to further his anti-Jewish demagoguery.
Ironically Marr, an extremist Jew-baiter, thereby invented a term that became standard as a label for anti-Jewish prejudice. Yet it's an intellectually idle and vacuous word as well as a euphemism. There is, after all, no such phenomenon as 'Semitism' to which one can be opposed |
Euphemism? Huh? More like misnomer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misnomer
Also, what exactly is a Jew "baiter"?
Last edited by igotthisguitar on Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:54 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:43 am Post subject: |
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Six Million?
Should someone be considered a "Holocaust denier" because he does not believe -- as Matas and others insist -- that six million Jews were killed during World War II? This figure was cited by the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg in 1945-1946. It found that "the policy pursued [by the German government] resulted in the killing of six million Jews, of which four million were killed in the extermination institutions." [2]
Yet if that is so, then several of the most prominent Holocaust historians could be regarded as "deniers." Professor Raul Hilberg, author of the standard reference work, The Destruction of the European Jews, does not accept that six million Jews died. He puts the total of deaths (from all causes) at 5.1 million. Gerald Reitlinger, author of The Final Solution, likewise did not accept the six million figure. He estimated the figure of Jewish wartime dead might be as high as 4.6 million, but admitted that this was conjectural due to a lack of reliable information |
A part of a longer article. Here's the link:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/096...lance&n=283155
Anyways, as you can see, NO SCHOLARS deny the number. Only how it could have possibly happened.
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:15 am Post subject: |
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| igotthisguitar wrote: |
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The term was coined only in the second half of the nineteenth century by a German anti-Jewish polemicist, Wilhelm Marr. Marr argued that western civilisation had been infiltrated by a pernicious Jewish influence, and he established his own Anti-Semitic League in 1871 to further his anti-Jewish demagoguery.
Ironically Marr, an extremist Jew-baiter, thereby invented a term that became standard as a label for anti-Jewish prejudice. Yet it's an intellectually idle and vacuous word as well as a euphemism. There is, after all, no such phenomenon as 'Semitism' to which one can be opposed |
Euphemism? Huh? More like misnomer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misnomer
Also, what exactly is a Jew "baiter"? |
(It probably is a stupid word however)
http://www.answers.com/topic/jew-baiter
The noun Jew-baiter has one meaning:
Meaning #1: someone who hates and would persecute Jews
Synonym: anti-Semite
Let me add to that
Examples: someone like the Neo Nazis , the Klan, Jeff Rense or Igothisguitar
Getting back to it.
The word/ expression anti semitism was not made by someone who friendly to Jews to describe persecution against them so they could get victim status (As it would seem that Igotthisguitar is trying to imply)
The world / expression was made by someone who hated Jews as something to be proud of. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:41 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| The world / expression was made by someone who hated Jews as something to be proud of. |
If true, this is all too ironic.
Especially given the non-stop efforts to exploit it in order to deceptively promote a narrow and bigoted politcal agenda ( i.e. Zionism ) |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:45 am Post subject: |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:
The world / expression was made by someone who hated Jews as something to be proud of.
If true, this is all too ironic.
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According to Wiki, it is true. Although a related word was coined ealier.
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The word antisemitic (antisemitisch in German) was probably first used in 1860 by the Jewish scholar Moritz Steinschneider in the phrase "antisemitic prejudices" (German: "antisemitische Vorurteile"). Steinschneider used this phrase to characterize Ernest Renan's ideas about how "Semitic races" were inferior to "Aryan races." These pseudo-scientific theories concerning race, civilization, and "progress" had become quite widespread in Europe in the second half of the 19th century, especially as Prussian nationalistic historian Heinrich von Treitschke did much to promote this form of racism. In Treitschke's writings Semitic was practically synonymous with Jewish, in contrast to its usage by Renan and others.
German political agitator Wilhelm Marr coined the related German word Antisemitismus in his book "The Way to Victory of Germanicism over Judaism" in 1879. Marr used the phrase to mean Jew-hatred or Judenhass, and he used the new word antisemitism to make hatred of the Jews seem rational and sanctioned by scientific knowledge. Marr's book became very popular, and in the same year he founded the "League of Anti-Semites" ("Antisemiten-Liga"), the first German organization committed specifically to combatting the alleged threat to Germany posed by the Jews, and advocating their forced removal from the country.
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| igotthisguitar wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| The world / expression was made by someone who hated Jews as something to be proud of. |
If true, this is all too ironic.
Especially given the non-stop efforts to exploit it in order to deceptively promote a narrow and bigoted politcal agenda ( i.e. Zionism ) |
well at any rate you didn't know what the expression means. Well it just goes to show you are not only an evil bigot , but an ignorant bigot as well. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| As a strong proponent of the "give 'em enough rope..." philosophy, I have to say: Great thread so far! Keep it coming! |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:36 am Post subject: |
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[quote="On the other hand"]
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:
The world / expression was made by someone who hated Jews as something to be proud of.
If true, this is all too ironic.
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According to Wiki, it is true. Although a related word was coined ealier.
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The word antisemitic (antisemitisch in German) was probably first used in 1860 by the Jewish scholar Moritz Steinschneider in the phrase "antisemitic prejudices" (German: "antisemitische Vorurteile"). Steinschneider used this phrase to characterize Ernest Renan's ideas about how "Semitic races" were inferior to "Aryan races." These pseudo-scientific theories concerning race, civilization, and "progress" had become quite widespread in Europe in the second half of the 19th century, especially as Prussian nationalistic historian Heinrich von Treitschke did much to promote this form of racism.
In Treitschke's writings Semitic was practically synonymous with Jewish, in contrast to its usage by Renan and others.
German political agitator Wilhelm Marr coined the related German word Antisemitismus in his book "The Way to Victory of Germanicism over Judaism" in 1879. Marr used the phrase to mean Jew-hatred or Judenhass, and he used the new word antisemitism to make hatred of the Jews seem rational and sanctioned by scientific knowledge.
Marr's book became very popular, and in the same year he founded the "League of Anti-Semites" ("Antisemiten-Liga"), the first German organization committed specifically to combatting the alleged threat to Germany posed by the Jews, and advocating their forced removal from the country. |
[quote]
Thanks OTO ... Hand
Bottom line here is Zionists & phony "hate" groups such as the JDL & B'nai Brith ( 100% MASONIC ), anti "defamation" League etc have sought to exploit this term for all its worth.
A large # of staged incidents involving vandalism & arson etc. have in fact been perpetuated by Zionists themselves.
FALSE FLAG !!!
No anti-"semitism" = NO ISRAEL.
Last edited by igotthisguitar on Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:38 am Post subject: |
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The word antisemitic (antisemitisch in German) was probably first used in 1860 by the Jewish scholar Moritz Steinschneider in the phrase "antisemitic prejudices" (German: "antisemitische Vorurteile"). Steinschneider used this phrase to characterize Ernest Renan's ideas about how "Semitic races" were inferior to "Aryan races." These pseudo-scientific theories concerning race, civilization, and "progress" had become quite widespread in Europe in the second half of the 19th century, especially as Prussian nationalistic historian Heinrich von Treitschke did much to promote this form of racism. In Treitschke's writings Semitic was practically synonymous with Jewish, in contrast to its usage by Renan and others.
German political agitator Wilhelm Marr coined the related German word Antisemitismus in his book "The Way to Victory of Germanicism over Judaism" in 1879. Marr used the phrase to mean Jew-hatred or Judenhass, and he used the new word antisemitism to make hatred of the Jews seem rational and sanctioned by scientific knowledge. Marr's book became very popular, and in the same year he founded the "League of Anti-Semites" ("Antisemiten-Liga"), the first German organization committed specifically to combatting the alleged threat to Germany posed by the Jews, and advocating their forced removal from the country. |
Snyway your history of the word was all flawed. but is that anything new? |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Snyway your history of the word was all flawed. but is that anything new? |
What are you talking about? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| igotthisguitar wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Snyway your history of the word was all flawed. but is that anything new? |
What are you talking about? |
Your version of the history of the word is flawed. |
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noguri
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Location: korea
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| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Excellent. You cite what is really at the heart of the debate on the Holocaust and its meaning.
I would not have expected anyone to reference the functionalists and intentionalists on this board. Pleasantly surprised.
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I'm surprised to find anyone quoting Hannah Arendt on this board! Not that I've read her, I can't say that I have.
Anyway, I wonder why nobody mentioned another debate about the Holocaust and its meaning. The debate brought to us by Norman Finkelstein.
Finkelstein's topic is not what caused the Holocaust, and he does not deny that the Holocaust occurred. Indeed, his parents were Auschwitz survivors. Then, why is he the victim of death threats by angry Jews? Well, because he wrote about how a Jewish Zionist elite re-wrote the history of the Holocaust in such a way that gives them power to determine what other Jews think.
I am not familiar with Holocaust studies, so I was aghast as I read Finkelstein's attack on Elie Wiesel. The acclaimed author and Nazi-hunting combatant is portrayed as a fake and a sham in Finkelstein's book, The Holocaust Industry.
What Finkelstein is arguing is that a small elite of American Jews, under the auspices of the B'nai Brith Anti-defamation League have used the Holocaust in such a way that they can justify the extermination of Muslim peoples. I think this has something in common with the information given by Arendt that ontheotherhand quoted for us.
For example, Finkelstein points out that large sums of money were paid by Germany as compensation to the victims. Where did that money go? He points out that poor Jews, survivors of Auschwitz like his parents, received next to nothing. The majority of it was swallowed up by the fatcats at the ADL.
I think his argument about how they re-wrote history is something like this: They argue that the Holocaust was the only genocide of its caliber, in fact, so horrific that no other act of evil can compare to it. As a result, the rest of the world must atone for what was done to the Jews, and Israel must never, ever be criticized. All who stand in the way of Israel are therefore equivalent to Nazis. This means that in the eyes of the Zionist, the Palestinian refugees whose homes are bulldozed by Israeli bulldozers are in fact not homeless refugees--they are evil Nazis.
By using a mass media blitz of information, the ADL has programmed almost all Jews to think this way, that all Arabs are terrorists and deserve to be killed. Even the Arab children, right?
Of course, this doesn't sound shocking to you, because now almost all Americans think this way. But remember, Finkelstein's book was written BEFORE Sept 11 2001. At the time, not everyone in America saw Arab children as terrorists who should be extinguished.
But Finkelstein thought it was shocking, and so do I. How could a people who were victims of genocide bring themselves to inflict nearly equal cruelty on others?
In light of what I've read on this forum and what's going on in the world today, I think I will make an effort to read Eichmann in Jerusalem by Arendt AND I will re-read The Holocaust Industry by Finkelstein. |
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