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Scott in Incheon
Joined: 30 Aug 2004
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 Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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You think you have won the 500,000won but won't name the poster becuase you don't want to single them out. Well, I beg to differ.
The only poster you could be talking about is Skaborough. Your evidence must be that he/she only corrected one error off Ya-ta's joke post. But Ska used 'you're' correctly at the beginning of the post and new that 'your' is a possesive. The fact that the other errors were missed shows signs of poor proofreading not poor grammar.
So...I could send you my account number and I promise to use the money towards new kindergarten books for my daughter so that another person doesn't grow up to offend your grammar sensibilities. Or to make mental miscues like her father.
Calling them mental miscues is not an excuse...it the reason the mistakes are made. They are still mistakes. They still need to be corrected, but they are not being made due to grammar ignorance, at least not by the native English teachers on this board.
If you have shadow people, do I get to have shadow people too. |
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ImaTeacher
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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Scott in Incheon wrote:
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| The only poster you could be talking about is Skaborough. Your evidence must be that he/she only corrected one error off Ya-ta's joke post. But Ska used 'you're' correctly at the beginning of the post and new that 'your' is a possesive. The fact that the other errors were missed shows signs of poor proofreading not poor grammar |
If someone uses "you're" correctly once, I wouldn't conclude that he/she has an understanding of that grammar point. I gave new students a level assessment test yesterday on the correct use of "a" and "an". One answered one question out of 10 correctly. It didn't occur to me that because he got one right.... all the other incorrect answers were miscues. We must work on his proofreading.
You nevrr did enlighton the rezt of us about what you actually consider tp b e a grammer mistake as oppoze3d to a mixcue. We still ain't sure.
It must be nice to have such a convenient excuse that works for not knowing something and for just not bothering to try to get things right.
I should have tried that when I worked as a writer. And I'm still wondering how students can tell the difference. |
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Kwangjuchicken
Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Location: I was abducted by aliens on my way to Korea and forced to be an EFL teacher on this crazy planet.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:31 pm Post subject: Re: You + are = you're |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
'You' is a pronoun. 'Are' is a verb (the 'be' verb to be specific). When you put them together, they equal 'you're'. The meaning stays the same.
'YOUR' on the other hand, is a possessive pronoun. Like 'Your shirt is blue. My shirt is yellow.'
While an occassional mistake or typo is natural, it isn't that fu*king difficult to keep these two words separate. Yes, I know you're (you are) mom called tonight with bad news about you're (you are) family and your (house? car?) in a bad mood, but you're (you are) bad grammar doesn't have that excuse. Christ on a cookie. Get with the program. |
What in the world inspired you to make this thread?
Ok. Let me try one.
'I' is a pronoun. "The" is an article. (The definite article to be specific.)
Put them together and you get "I the". Then we can add more words and get a sentence. "I think the thread is stupid." Mohammad on a croissant. Get with the program.
Last edited by Kwangjuchicken on Sun Aug 06, 2006 2:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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davai!
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Location: Kuwait
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| Wangja wrote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
As for Brit English being better, I disagree. It's older, thus more fossilized. ON the weekend? Egad.... On Friday, on Saturday, fine. But the weekend is TWO days, for frick's sake. During the weekend? Fine. ON the weekend? Aargh...
AT hospital. At THE freakin' hospital, OK??
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Older = more fossilised?? Do you read what you write?
On the weekend AFAIK is an Americanism and nobody in my circle would say "on the weekend" - apart from my American chums.
I have never heard "at hospital" but I have heard "at school", "at church" etc. Adding the definite article changes the meaning. |
Maybe he meant "AT the weekend?" I've heard that alot from Brits. Makes it seem like "the weekend" is a club or some other location. |
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Scott in Incheon
Joined: 30 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| You nevrr did enlighton the rezt of us about what you actually consider tp b e a grammer mistake as oppoze3d to a mixcue. We still ain't sure |
Nice. I am sure why you are purposely misspelling words in a discussion about grammar. Grammar and spelling have nothing to do with each other. I would assume a person who has been teaching writing and making a living at it for 17 years would know this.
So you are comparing your beginning level second language learners and how they perform on a grammar test to native English teachers. Interesting.
Ska response shows she/he knows that 'your' is a possesive. That being true, it also shows that she/he is not using 'your' for everything--it has a purpose and he/she knows it. A fact that is verified by him/her using 'you're in the beginning of the post.
As to the 'excuse' thing...I have no idea what you are talking about. People make this error a lot. There are reasons for it. Many of the reasons don't have anything to do with their knowledge of grammar. And I would assert that on this board, everyone who has graduated university and teaches English would know the difference if they faced the your/you're question on a simple grammar test.
Students don't have to tell the difference. I tell them about my own problems when I write. I tell them that when I write there are things that I have to look out for. Knowing my problems means that I check for my errors every time I write. I tell my students that they can do the same thing. They can choose an error and concentrate on it during their proofreading. You see...you say Imateacher...but I actually teach my students, and one of the things I teach them is writers make mistakes. Some are miscues and some are errors of knowledge but we all make mistakes. |
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ImaTeacher
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:01 am Post subject: |
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Poor Scott....
"We still ain't sure" is a grammar mistake....not a spelling mistake. I don't think even you could call it a miscue. Just threw that in to see if I could slip it by you...obviously not a problem.
I just got a message from another poster advising me to stop wasting my time with you. Your "modus operandi" seems to be writing endless emails that because of your "miscues", are often difficult to follow. Like a dog with a bone, you mindlessly stick to the same point no matter what anyone says. And you use the excuse that your mistakes are partly attributable to the fact that you write in a hurry between classes. It's Saturday and you must have had classes since early this morning and they're obviously still continuing. What a grueling schedule!
I wasn't comparing beginners to native English speakers. It's the principle that's the same. If someone, regardless of their age or level, makes frequent mistakes concerning a particular grammar point and only occasionally gets it right, is it reasonable to label those mistakes as "miscues" in 100 per cent of the cases? I suspect that most people wouldn't think so. Furthermore, I didn't say that everyone who misuses "your" and "you're" only uses "your". Since you maintain that 100% of college graduates know the correct use, I was pointing out that those who never use you're".... obviously don't know the correct use.
And I must be a glutton for punishment but I�ll ask one final time. Since you obviously consider yourself an expert in this area, give us some examples of what you consider to be grammar mistakes rather than miscues. |
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Scott in Incheon
Joined: 30 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| "We still ain't sure" is a grammar mistake....not a spelling mistake. I don't think even you could call it a miscue. Just threw that in to see if I could slip it by you...obviously not a problem. |
Slip in all the grammar mistakes you want. We are not talking about other grammar mistakes.
Though I would argue that in some discourses this would not be a grammar mistake as the dictionary tells the definition of ain't is
ain't
One entry found for ain't.
Main Entry: ain't
Pronunciation: 'Ant
Etymology: contraction of are not
1 : am not : are not : is not
2 : have not : has not
3 : do not : does not : did not -- used in some varieties of Black English
usage Although widely disapproved as nonstandard and more common in the habitual speech of the less educated, ain't in senses 1 and 2 is flourishing in American English.
So your sentence We still ain't sure...is the same as We still are not sure. Not a great sentence but not really ungrammatical.
And, actually because you did it on purpose I wouldn't call it an error of knowledge, which we are discussing here, or a miscue. You wrote exactly what you wanted to get your message across. I would just call that writing.
I am in a camp with classes on Saturday. Therefore, I am still writing between classes. I started at 8 this morning and returned home at 8 in the evening. And yes, it is a grueling schedule. Thanks for caring.
| Quote: |
| I just got a message from another poster advising me to stop wasting my time with you. Your "modus operandi" seems to be writing endless emails that because of your "miscues", are often difficult to follow. Like a dog with a bone, you mindlessly stick to the same point no matter what anyone says. |
I love the 'other posters are supporting me through pm's so I must be right' argument. And how is the dog with a bone comparison any different for you. You don't seem to be changing your mind despite what I am saying. You haven't said anything to convince that what I have study/read about to be untrue. I disagree with your conclusion based on Ska's posting. We disagree.
Yet you continue because you want to be right about people not knowing relatively simple grammar because otherwise you look like kind of an anal retentive *beep* for pointing their mistakes out.
Have you had trouble following my posts? If so, tell where I have confused you and I will try to make my ideas clearer.
Now to answer your question.
I would say that I would consider a grammar mistake to be an error of knowledge if you had to give the person a mini lesson in grammar after finding the mistake. So if the person says...damn I confused the two. It is not an error of knowledge, it is a miscue. But if they didn't know how to correct the mistake and needed instruction then I would consider it an error in knowledge.
Therefore I consider most of the errors in these posts to be miscure, momentary mental breakdowns because when the pointed out the poster usually knows they have made a mistake.
Just as right about now you should be realizing that you have made a mistake. |
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ImaTeacher
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:43 am Post subject: |
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Scott in Incheon wrote:
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| I love the 'other posters are supporting me through pm's so I must be right' argument. |
?????? Supporting you???? What dimension are you living in? And it's nice that you get so many breaks "between classes". LOL.
It�s obvious you can't/won't give a specific example of a grammar mistake. So, it�s time to follow the advice I was given about not continuing to waste time on you�.although I did get a lot done at home today in between posts.
You can continue to believe that your ability to understand the rationale behind grammar mistakes/miscues is superior to that of everyone else. However, most people realize that it's a great way to justify your own mistakes....no need to repeat the excuses.
When I need a laugh I will try to remember that every college graduate knows how to use �your� and �you�re� correctly. That is one of the stupidest statements I�ve seen on this forum and I�m told this isn�t the first time you�ve made it. Are you even aware that in some countries university students in certain disciplines don't have to take a single English course? I guess they develop their English language proficiency just from being on campus.
The first step to improving one's skills is acknowledging that there's a problem. But with attitudes like yours, that will never happen.
Enjoy life in �la la land�. As my father used to say, �It isn�t fair to duel with an unarmed opponent.� |
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Scott in Incheon
Joined: 30 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 5:41 am Post subject: |
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| ?????? Supporting you???? What dimension are you living in? |
I am living in the dimension where people can read. I was commenting on your mentioning how another poster was pm'ing you with support. Not me. You. Can you follow the sentences?
I gave you an example of what I would consider a error in knowledge. This is what I am talking about. So if you had to give someone on this board a mini-lesson in your/you're then their error would be an error of knowledge...but if you pointed it out and they slapped their head and said 'silly me'...then it is just a miscue.
I am not justifying my mistakes. I own up to my mistakes. I often write there when I mean to write their. I often forget to add the 'd' to past participles. I am a terrible speller. Sometimes my typing doesn't seem to actual correspond to the thoughts I wanted to get down on paper. I will admit to all of this and more when it comes to lazy writing. I am badly need of proofreading.
| Quote: |
| When I need a laugh I will try to remember that every college graduate knows how to use �your� and �you�re� correctly. That is one of the stupidest statements I�ve seen on this forum and I�m told this isn�t the first time you�ve made it. |
I may have made this statement on another thread. I am not sure that I did. If I said everyone who ever graduated from a college or university would not make this error, then go and look for it and I might...might...back down. But I never said anything like that on this thread.
Go back...read...digest it and come back...oh you won't come back because you are done wasting your time. Good...then read and realize that I have been talking about this board. University graduates, that teach English and post on this board. Realize that I have been talking about different types of mistakes, not justifying one over the other...rather pointing out my view that the people on this board...when it comes right down to it...know the difference between your and you're.
It may not be fair to duel them but it must be heartwrenching to lose to one.
edit One last thing...does this
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| And it's nice that you get so many breaks "between classes". LOL. |
mean you think I am not telling the truth about when I post? Calling me a liar? Isn't that nice...
note--can't seem to get read of the large font...not sure why |
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ImaTeacher
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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Ok Scott�I just couldn�t allow you to get away with the following :
I wrote:
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| When I need a laugh I will try to remember that every college graduate knows how to use �your� and �you�re� correctly. That is one of the stupidest statements I�ve seen on this forum and I�m told this isn�t the first time you�ve made it. |
You responded:
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b]I may have made this statement on another thread. I am not sure that I did. If I said everyone who ever graduated from a college or university would not make this error, then go and look for it and I might...might...back down. [/b]But I never said anything like that on this thread.
Go back...read...digest it and come back...oh you won't come back because you are done wasting your time. Good...then read and realize that I have been talking about this board. University graduates, that teach English and post on this board. Realize that I have been talking about different types of mistakes, not justifying one over the other...rather pointing out my view that the people on this board...when it comes right down to it...know the difference between your and you're." |
Someone was kind enough to bring the following to my attention:
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| �There isn't a native speaker of English anywhere (may not be true for young learners but certainly true of anyone who has entered university)that doesn't 'know' the difference between these two words. No one is going to get this wrong if it is discreet question on a test. That doesn't mean that people's cylinders don't misfired when they are writing and they replace one for the other. � |
You wrote this on January 14, 2006..... in response to a threat titled What degree do you have? AND YES, YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT "YOUR" AND "YOU'RE".
Now, I�m fully expecting you to say that �anyone who has entered university� does not mean the same thing as "everyone who graduated from university". But then you would be arguing that people know more when they enter university than when they graduate.
LOL
And Scott, maybe you should contact the following about the �error of their ways�:
Washington University in their publication �Common Errors in English� lists the misuse of you/you�re as an error�.not a miscue�..an error.
Purdue University�s acclaimed writing site, �The Owl At Purdue, lists the misuse of your/you�re as an error�.not a miscue�..an error.
From Famous Last Words: The American Language Crisis Reconsidered
Recent graduates, including those with university degrees, seem to have no mastery of the language at all. They cannot construct a simple declarative sentence, either orally or in writing. They cannot spell common, everyday words. Punctuation is apparently no longer taught. Grammar is a complete mystery to almost all recent graduates.
The common language is disappearing. It is slowly being crushed to death under the weight of verbal conglomerate, a pseudospeech at once both pretentious and feeble, that is created daily by millions of blunders and inaccuracies in grammar, syntax, idiom, metaphor, logic, and common sense.... In the history of modern English there is no period in which such victory over thought-in-speech has been so widespread. Nor in the past has the general idiom, on which we depend for our very understanding of vital matters, been so seriously distorted.
From every college in the country goes up the cry, "Our freshmen can't spell, can't punctuate." Every high school is in disrepair because its pupils are so ignorant of the merest rudiments.
(These quotes are from 1978, 1961 and 1971. Leading educators maintain the situation has gotten much worse since then.)
They can't write, spell or present an argument�(From the National Literacy Trust)
University students can't write decent English. Worse, their attempts to do so show that many can't follow a logical train of thought or present a reasoned argument. In fact, growing numbers are not ready for the demands of higher education.
This damning verdict comes from professional writers who have been working with students in universities. They are shocked at what they have found, and have decided to make public a report summarising the full depths of their concerns. Hilary Spurling, a prize-winning biographer who launched the report, entitled Writing Matters, said: "Most contemporary British students arriving at university lack the basic ability to express themselves in writing."
In 1999, the Royal Literary Fund launched a fellowship scheme to place writers in universities to help students with their writing. The idea was that working writers would be able to help students in all subject areas communicate better. Since then, 130 writers have worked in 70 universities and colleges, and there are now 60 fellows in post. They work in a range of institutions and the scheme has been very successful. All have run into the same experience, finding today's students' lack key skills.
(Independent, 25 May 2006)
(I guess they forgot to include the following disclaimer��. �But 100 per cent of those who have ENTERED university do know how to use �your� and �you�re� when they can be bothered to think about it. It�s really just a matter of bad proofreading�)
Student Grammar Decline....(From the University of Victoria Newspaper, The Martlet . Also reprinted in other Canadian student newspapers) by Amalia Colussi
Word processors may dot your i�s and cross your t�s, but according to educators, computerized spell and grammar checkers are still not sophisticated enough to solve students� grammar woes.
Many profs are finding that a number of university students don�t have the grammar know-how to express themselves clearly or to adequately analyze the English language�English and writing students included[/b].
�Writers still need to know grammar in order to analyze language,� said Susan Doyle, an instructor in the UVic English Department�s Professional Writing Program for the past nine years.
�To teach a language, you need a language to describe it,� she said. But Doyle points out many of the students she works with lack basic knowledge about English.
She feels students need the same level of mastery in English that language teachers expect of students learning a second language. �I don�t see how we can expect less of English students than we do of students studying foreign languages.�
A large part of the problem, according to Doyle, is that instructors require a strong foundation in grammar themselves in order to teach it. Yet few instructors at the elementary and high school level have that strong foundation.[/b]
�A big issue is that we�ve now had two generations of teachers without grammar,� said Doyle. �The teachers themselves have not been taught it and therefore can�t teach it.�
Janice McCacheon, an English teacher at Claremont High School, agrees. She�s been teaching English since 1989 and points out teachers are given little direction as to what they should cover in class.
�The curriculum itself is not very explicit,� she said. The B.C. curriculum goals, called Projected Learning Outcomes, are �very nebulous and general. They don�t talk about grammar specifics.�
Grammar instruction, like bell-bottom pants and high-protein diets, blows in and out of style according to the winds of teaching theory.
McCacheon suggested teachers feel pressure to entertain their students, and grammar has a reputation as being a boring subject. �The students expect a school to be lively, to be entertainment,� she said. �I blame the media.�
But the biggest culprit, according to both Doyle and McCacheon, is that students are reading less and less.
�The best students in my classes either don�t have TV or cable, or they watch it less than others,� said McCacheon.
And both agree that a basic knowledge of grammar is still an essential part of effective communication.
�It�s still necessary to teach grammar,� said Doyle. �We need grammar as an analytical tool..
Spel it anyway u like
Richard Wade, an Oxford graduate who works for the BBC, has set up a website campaigning against illogical spelling. He wants 'freespeling' as used by text messsagers, to take its place alongside the standard version.
Wade believes that the high numbers of people said to have literacy problems in this country is due to the illogical spelling of many English words. He is hoping to find a sponsor so he can develop a global English dictionary with words 'freespeled' or should that be freespelt?
He is not pushing for freespeling to be taught in schools or used in work but sees it as useful for emails and informal communication "Conventional spelling will be taught, he says. But alongside it will be freespeling."
For more information see www.freespeling.com.
(Scott, maybe you should lobby for �freegrammar/punctuation�.)
Finally, you're right about one thing.....I did misread your statement....
"I love the 'other posters are supporting me through pm's so I must be right' argument". (A comma after "pm's" would have helped to make it clearer.) I guess I just wasn't prepared for a sentence that is almost free of miscues.
I'm sure you will continue to feel you've won "the argument", as you've done on other threads, despite all evidence to the contrary....possibly a "logic miscue". |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Wangja wrote: |
As a passenger in the late 70's, I once gave a stewardess a really hard time flying back from Saudi Arabia: seeking to have the last word, she sneeringly said:-
"Do you know you drivel when you're asleep, Sir?"
I did not understand what she meant until I learned today that "drivel" = "dribble".
Drivelling while I sleep ...... hahaha .... bollox ... |
As a noun, which is the usage that had been presented.
Context is everything, so I say bollox to your bollox. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Wangja wrote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
As for Brit English being better, I disagree. It's older, thus more fossilized. ON the weekend? Egad.... On Friday, on Saturday, fine. But the weekend is TWO days, for frick's sake. During the weekend? Fine. ON the weekend? Aargh...
AT hospital. At THE freakin' hospital, OK??
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Older = more fossilised?? Do you read what you write?
On the weekend AFAIK is an Americanism and nobody in my circle would say "on the weekend" - apart from my American chums.
I have never heard "at hospital" but I have heard "at school", "at church" etc. Adding the definite article changes the meaning. |
Sorry, I've never heard on the weekend from any American, though at the weekend would have been a clearer example.
At hospital is quite common, but not from any American I've ever met. It is a Commonwealth usage. |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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i remember a poster once wrote "your an idiot"... to which I simply quoted and replied with a "  " ... i don't think he got it |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| jinks wrote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| As for Brit English being better, I disagree. It's older, thus more fossilized. ON the weekend? Egad.... On Friday, on Saturday, fine. But the weekend is TWO days, for frick's sake. During the weekend? Fine. ON the weekend? Aargh...AT hospital. At THE freakin' hospital, OK?? |
Umm, one variety of English is not better than another, though there certainly are differences.
"As for Brit English being better, I disagree. It's older, thus more fossilized."
INCORRECT: As well as being very innovative in creating new forms, US English has held onto a lot of archaic usages, long since abandoned by British English speakers. 'Ain't' is a good example of older language usages being retained by American English speakers, long after British English speakers have forgotten them. Interestingly 'Americanisms' that are often resisted by purist British English speakers are usually old British forms reintroduced via International (US) popular culture.[/i] |
Links, sir jinks? Cuz I ain't buyin' just yet. So, let's see.... the Brits get less grammatical, but this makes them better speakers of English? Bollox. Brits don't use ain't? Bollox.
I am, actually, a descriptivist. You'll notice I did not actually state an opinion in my reply above, I simply pointed out the fallacies stated by the other poster.
Nice try, though.
| jinks wrote: |
| With regard to your / you're, don't be such a flake and try to pass off ignorance as "living language" it's a freaking spelling mistake. Be an English teacher, sure there is no need to flame your friends or social connections for English errors, but if you are an English teacher you should know the difference! |
I certainly hope this wasn't directed at me. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott in Incheon wrote: |
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| You�re dead wrong! The incorrect use of you're/your is epidemic on this site and it can�t be attributed to �proofreading skills�. When someone makes a couple of different mistakes in a post, it could be a proofreading issue. When he/she makes the same mistake three times in a post (or at least once in every post), it's a grammar problem. This wouldn't merit a comment on most sites, but we are supposed to be English teachers. |
No...I am not wrong. It doesn't matter really matter how many times they do it. I always write 'there' when I mean 'their'. I know my grammar...I know when someone points it out, that I have made a mistake. Take those grammar items and put them into a test. Everyone here is going to know when to use you're and your. I am willing to put money on it.
You pick out the person you think doesn't know their grammar based on this your/you're. We will all meet and give them a test. If they pass (100%)...you can apologize to them, me and all the rest of the posters who make this little mental miscues. Then you can give me 250,000 won. If the person does not score 100%, I will apologize to you and give you 500,000 won. The poster will have to be a teacher and native speaker. |
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