Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Dugsby]

I came across this expression in a text yesterday and was puzzled by it.

Can someone explain to me why the term "If I were" is correct rather than "If I was".

This seems counterintuitive.

[dogbert]

They're not teaching the subjunctive mood nowadays?

http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000031.htm

[dogbert]

Wait, you're a troll, right?

[Juregen]

" If i were a rich man" (fiddler on the roof)

[yawarakaijin]

As far as I know the only time "If I were" works is when using the second conditional. I'm afraid I dont know the technical term for it if there is one but I'm pretty sure it's the only time its acceptable.

If I was you I would go v.s If I were you I would go.

"I were a fireman a long time ago", obviously doesnt work.

[numazawa]

So it turns out to be true after all that this is a "forum for ESL teachers."

Now all we need is a forum for English-as-their-first-language teachers.

[Cerriowen]

I'd say "If I were you"... <shrug>

[yawarakaijin]

Was I wrong about the use of were in the 2nd conditional there?

Let me try it again... If I were you I would get a life?

[heydelores]

"If I were . . " is subjunctive.

From Michael Swan's Practical English Usage:

1. forms and meanings
The subjunctive is a special kind of present tense which has no -s in the third person signular. It is sometimes used in that-clauses in a formal style, especially in American English, after words which express the idea that something is important or desirable . . . The same forms are used in both present and past sentences.
It is essential that every child have the same educational opportunities.
We felt it was important that James write to Uncle Arthur as soon as possible.
Our advice is that the company invest in new equipment.
The judge recommended that Simmons remain in prison for at least three years.

Do is not used in negative subjunctives. Note the word order.
We considered it desirable that he not leave school before finishing his exams.

2. be
Be has sepcial subjunctive forms: I be, you be, etc.
It is important that Helen be present when we sign the papers.
The Director asked that he be allowed to advertise for more staff.

The forms I were and he/she/it were, used for example after if and wish in a formal stayle, are also a kind of subjunctive.
If I were you, I would stop smoking.
I wish it were Sunday.

3. fixed phrases
Subjunctives are also used in certain fixed phrases. Examples:
God save the King/Queen!
Long live the bride/groom!
God bless you.
Heaven forbid.
He's a sort of adopted uncle, as it were.
Be that as it may.
So be it.[/b]

4. other structures
Most subjunctive structures are formal and unusual in British English. In that-clauses, British people usually prefer should+infinitive, or ordinary present and past tenses.
It is essential that every child should have the same educational opportunities. (OR . . . that every child has . . . )
We felt it was important that James should write to Uncle Arthur as soon as possible. (OR . . . that James wrote . . . )

5. older English
Older English had more subjunctive forms, and used them in many kinds of "unreal" sense to talk about possible, desirable, or imaginary situations. Many of these forms have disappeared from modern English, being replaced by uses of should, would and other modal verbs, by special uses of past tenses, and by ordinary verb forms.

[ajuma]

[mack the knife]

We had a debate on this very question many moons ago. It's probably still floating around on the board somewhere.

Here's the final solution:

"If I were" used to be the only correct answer; however, over time, people have used "If I was" so much (incorrectly) that it has become grammatically acceptable (according to most sources cited in the debate, although there were exceptions).

That's the thick and thin of it.

The same principle (that is, English gammar evolution) applies to the age-old "can vs. may" debate. What was once set in stone is now pebbles in the stream. Unfortunately, some might say.

[vox]

That's the way a lot of that stuff goes.
In the American folksong Little Cindy, the opening lines are,

"I wish I was an apple, just hanging from a tree,
And every time my sweetheart passed, she'd take a bite of me."

I know, rural quotation, but interesting.

What also interests me is how quotes from slang-speaking sports stars become the catalyst to something reaching mass use and entering the lexicon, and then getting the nomine Patri Filii Spirito Sancto in the blue Azar, or getting pushed from incorrect to "correct but informal" through mass use. A reporter will quote a baseball star who doesn't use a conditional form of the future tense, and then linguists are predicting the death of that grammar point in 50 years. What?! But you look back 50 years and you can find a very different English language at work. Can't even imagine what it'll be like in another 50. (But when my Korean student asks me when I think 'han-deu-pon' will make it into common English usage, I'm lost for words as to how to gently break it to him that maybe it'll never happen. )

on a related topic, French and Portuguese (at least) are going through dynamic changes, informed chiefly by new vocabulary and expressions from the former colonies coming 'home' and changing the mother tongue.

[dogbert]

Here's an example:

If I were an English teacher with any bit of self-respect, I'd frickin' make sure I knew my subject backwards and forwards.

[Dugsby]

Thanks for the constructive responses.

[ChopChaeJoe]

If I were a hammer
I'd hammer in the morning
I'd hammer in the evening
all over this land,
I'd hammer out danger
I'd hammer out a warning
I'd hammer out love between all of my brothers and my sisters
All over this land.