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Novernae
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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 Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| R. S. Refugee wrote: |
| Novernae wrote: |
... Which is the greater evil? Allowing a child to walk all over their educators so they in turn learn nothing and grow up to be wimpy failures, or exposing them to limited amounts of physical pain that keeps them in line?...
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I don't think I can offer a good intellectual response to this, but will simply say that my personal experience hasn't left me with the feeling that it was just 2 choices:
1. Limited amounts of physical pain that leads to productive attitudes and compliance with the needs of the classroom and to the likely success of the child.
or
2. A child who will walk all over me, learn nothing, and grow up to be a failure.
In all honesty, I am inclined to think of educators who see these as the only choices as being a bit uninspired and unimaginative.
That said, I'm sure that eventually I'll run into some kid who makes me think back on this discussion with a little embarassment. But I see that as being a rare exception rather than a common problem.
The truth is that I like students (middle school aged, in particular) so much and give them so much positive reinforcement that simply withholding that positive reinforcement for a while can, I find, have a tremendously positive impact on compliance with desired classroom norms. Know what I mean? |
I don't disagree with you on this, and I definately don't see the world in such black and white, but there are kids who need the strict discipline, for which you might sometimes need to resort to some sort of physical punishment. Many other kids respond well to positive reinforcement, and in those cases, I much prefer that method, and do consider it to be, on the whole, more effective. |
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cdninkorea
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:32 am Post subject: Re: Korean sadism against children-"it's just our way&q |
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| R. S. Refugee wrote: |
So, I wonder if these fine folks have ever heard about the Geneva Conventions and prohibitions against group punishment.
Comments? |
I know this isn't the point, but since you asked for comments I have to point out the the Geneva Convention mandates certain conduct of persons during and involved in war, and has nothing to do with what a government does to its own people, let alone what college-aged supervisors do to their students during a summer camp. |
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R. S. Refugee
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:37 am Post subject: Re: Korean sadism against children-"it's just our way&a |
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| cdninkorea wrote: |
| R. S. Refugee wrote: |
So, I wonder if these fine folks have ever heard about the Geneva Conventions and prohibitions against group punishment.
Comments? |
I know this isn't the point, but since you asked for comments I have to point out the the Geneva Convention mandates certain conduct of persons during and involved in war, and has nothing to do with what a government does to its own people, let alone what college-aged supervisors do to their students during a summer camp. |
Yes, of course, that was a facetious parallel that I was drawing though the topic was serious enough. |
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R. S. Refugee
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| Novernae wrote: |
I don't disagree with you on this, and I definately don't see the world in such black and white, but there are kids who need the strict discipline, for which you might sometimes need to resort to some sort of physical punishment. Many other kids respond well to positive reinforcement, and in those cases, I much prefer that method, and do consider it to be, on the whole, more effective. |
I think we're almost in agreement. I think that strict discipline can probably be applied in such cases without resorting to phyical punishment, but I admit I don't have many years of experience to draw on in support of that view.
I'll discuss this question with you again in 5 years. Maybe I'll be more (or less) certain whether I'm right on this issue by then. |
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ChopChaeJoe
Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| Usually (always?) when people say, "It's just our way," it's because deep down they know it isn't right, but to justify it otherwise will only expose a fallacy of reasoning. |
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Hyeon Een
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:34 am Post subject: |
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I think making kids squat isn't so bad. I've been to taekwando and haedong gumdo classes where I've been made to squat. I don't think it's done me any harm yet. I regard making someone 'squat' as being different to being beaten with a big ass stick. However.. As a 'young adult' (less than 25 years old):
In the USA young kids have attempted to attack me a bunch of times.
In the UK young kids have attempted to attack me a bunch of times.
In Australia young kids have attempted to attack me a bunch of times.
In Korea young kids have never attempted to attack me.
Maybe they have some respect for me. Maybe they're afraid of being beaten by me. I don't know. All I know is that something is going on well with the way they're being raised. This doesn't mean that I like the education system or corporal punishment, it just means that they seem to have more respect for an adult here. If that reason is squats, then I am all for squats for kids all over the globe =) If it is because they've been beaten senseless in the past.. then well.. I guess we should look for a middle ground.
(If it is different in the 'big Korean cities' and there are psycho kids trying to mug you all the time despite being punished by their teachers then my point is moot. If not, then lets find a happy ground between western and eastern educational systems)
I like how safe I feel around high-school-aged kids here. |
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W.T.Carl
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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Anybody who has the gall to state : "The Koreans aren't as enlightened as we in the west" is an idiot who should go back to CANADA and starve. Their culture has endured for 5000 years. And as for their educational system not being as good as ours, look around- who makes your TV, your computer and your cell phone. I don't see any CANADIAN TVs, cell phones and computers.  |
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ChopChaeJoe
Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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Group punishment, group thinking, it's all good. Just be glad that you aren't a kid, or always being attacked by them, like a previous poster.
Kids just shrug off creulty, don't they? That stuff never affects them as adults. Soldiers put up with it. They're the best examples of citizens we have. |
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Matman
Joined: 02 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| W.T.Carl wrote: |
| Anybody who has the gall to state : "The Koreans aren't as enlightened as we in the west" is an idiot who should go back to CANADA and starve. Their culture has endured for 5000 years. And as for their educational system not being as good as ours, look around- who makes your TV, your computer and your cell phone. I don't see any CANADIAN TVs, cell phones and computers. |
TV - Philips (Dutch)
Computer - Dell (Irish)
Cell phone - Nokia (Finnish)
But then again I live in a country that doesn't have protectionist import restrictions.  |
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Novernae
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:22 am Post subject: |
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| ChopChaeJoe wrote: |
| Soldiers put up with it. They're the best examples of citizens we have. |
I really don't want to get into it, but you really think soldiers are the best examples of citezens we have? You never lived near an army base did you...  |
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sjrm
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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Computer - Dell (Irish)
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well, they're actually made in round rock, texas, (suburb of austin). headquarters is their, as well as the the factory. but who's counting anyway?  |
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Novernae
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Novernae wrote: |
| ChopChaeJoe wrote: |
| Soldiers put up with it. They're the best examples of citizens we have. |
I really don't want to get into it, but you really think soldiers are the best examples of citezens we have? You never lived near an army base did you... |
Oops... I was tired and my sarcasm filter was off. Ignore my comment, please. |
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