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Omkara
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Location: USA
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 Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:39 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, Kuhn is a great thinker. I love his idea that to bring science into the realm of debate in the humanistic education, we ought to put it into a historical context. As such, its project is clearer. Its meaning for freedom becomes more clear.
Yeah, ideas such as syncronicity do fall outside of the parameters of falsifiability. Statistical analysis is helpful here, but how would one set up an experiment which would be repeatable in this case? Yet, the implications for science and its foundations are huge! I mean, how can a non-causual connective principle fit into the model of scientific testing?
What is lothsome is when people dismiss such phenomemena outright since it does not fit in with their understanding. The phenomena is what it is and is a fact, albeit a fact which is not explained in any satisfactory way.
What is more is that some people will put forth hypotheses and imagine that such anomalies play no part in evaluating them, so figure that we are safe to either ignore or dismiss them. I was speaking with one young thinker who was doing so, and I cited an example or two that, if true, would render his hypothesis false in a seemingly unrelated field (literary criticism). He would not even discuss the ideas, though they were presented respectfully, objectively, with a sense of wonder. He dismissed such as "quack" thinking. When I further presented that I had some interesting experiences which would indicate the same, anxiety filled his face and he asked, "Can we NOT talk about this?"
It's easy to dismiss such things as syncronicity, dream telepathy, etc. It is more difficult to seriously look at them, especially when their implications require that we re-evaluate or even drop our golden calves. |
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hermes.trismegistus
Joined: 08 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:31 am Post subject: Re: What parapsychology lacks |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Getting out of the kitchen because of the heat, huh? |
What hubris.
To repeat: "I don't have the desire to repeat myself, and nor do I see the value in discussing the issue with someone with such obvious prejudice towards the data."
I already covered this topic in another thread.
If you studied psychology then you should understand the archetype of the skeptic who refuses to accept data beyond his paradigm.
Most informed skeptics no longer deny the effects. They merely debate the agents involved. Uninformed skeptics continue to think that replicability has yet to be demonstrated, or that design errors account for the data.
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| A wonderful example of how one of the highest profile parapsychological labs could be easily duped. |
Anyone can be duped. Look at the scam that HIV/AIDS has turned into. A virus that has never been isolated, doesn't pass Koch's Postulates, and has never been demonstrated via vertical heterosexual transmission garners near unanimous consent.
Even Carl Sagan recognized the relevance of psi research. He wasn't exactly famous for his open-mindedness...
Namaste. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:14 am Post subject: Re: What parapsychology lacks |
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Oh looks who's back. Glad to have you back in the debate.
| hermes.trismegistus wrote: |
What hubris. |
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| If you studied psychology then you should understand the archetype of the skeptic who refuses to accept data beyond his paradigm. |
Not me, chuckles or any skeptic I know. Paradigms are busted all the time in science, particularly cosmology. The key is, we like evidence.
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| Most informed skeptics no longer deny the effects. |
Golly. Got any names?
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| Anyone can be duped. |
And yet parapsychologists specifically claim they can't be duped and never build in such protocols into their experiments.
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| Even Carl Sagan recognized the relevance of psi research. He wasn't exactly famous for his open-mindedness... |
I would label Sagan as a man with a very open mind. Got any examples of his closed mindedness? Got a quote that Sagan "recognized the relevance of psi research" which can mean just about anything.
Hell, I recognize the relevance of psi research. If you want to research it, great. I'd be very excited if even ONE effect the woo woo crowd could be proven with a repeatable experiment. Just supply the repeatable evidence. The problem with psi researchers is when so called skeptics try to repeat their effects and don't find them, the psi researchers claim this is, in fact, an effect of psi. Golly. If you don't believe in it, you suppress the effect. Reminds me of the arguments French science used for N-rays. It takes a special French mind to see the N-rays. The German mind just isn't enlightened enough. |
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hermes.trismegistus
Joined: 08 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:27 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Oh looks who's back. Glad to have you back in the debate. |
In order to have a debate you generally need two educated positions. You have demonstrated a lack of familiarity with the data. Beyond that, you have demonstrated a prejudice regarding the data. Debating the issue with someone who has accepted premature certainty doesn't fit into my schedule right now.
Did you read that other thread yet? I have better things to do with my time than to repeat myself, which, unfortunately, I've repeated several times within this thread.
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| At the time of writing there are three claims in the ESP field which, in my opinion, deserve serious study: (1) that by thought alone humans can (barely) affect random number generators in computers; (2) that people under mild sensory deprivation can receive thoughts or images "projected" at them; and (3) that young children sometimes report the details of a previous life, which upon checking turn out to be accurate and which they could not have known about in any other way than reincarnation. - Carl Sagan, The Demon Haunted World |
Sagan's work as a CSICOP fascist abounds with examples of his close-mindedness. And if you fail to recognize that, it probably demonstrates a few things about your own ability to look beyond your own blinders.
Namaste. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 6:01 am Post subject: |
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| hermes.trismegistus wrote: |
Sagan's work as a CSICOP fascist abounds with examples of his close-mindedness. |
So supply one.
And you misinterpret the Sagan quote. In Demon Haunted World, Sagan makes the point that the skeptical community should not approach the woo woo crowd as curmudgeons. He's only making the point that out of all the woo woo claims, three with any interest are the three he's listed.
You didn't quote the second paragraph:
"I pick these claims not because I think they're likely to be valid (I don't), but as examples of contentions that might be true." They "have at least some, although still dubious, experimental support. Of course, I could be wrong."
BTW:
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Koch's postulates
Koch's postulates are a set of criteria formulated to establish a causal relationship between a suspected disease-causing organism and a disease. They are:
* The suspected cause must be present in every case of the disease.
* The suspected cause must be isolated from the host with the disease and grown in pure culture.
* The disease must be reproduced when a pure culture of the suspected cause is introduced into a healthy susceptible host.
* The suspected cause must be recoverable from the experimentally infected host.
Proof of the fulfillment of these postulates is considered a sufficient demonstration of the causality of a disease. According to dissidents, failure to satisfy these postulates, especially the first two, may cast doubt on HIV as the cause of AIDS. Some dissidents, for example Peter Duesberg, claim that Koch's first postulate is not adequately fulfilled because there are individual cases of AIDS in which HIV cannot be isolated.[9] Others, for example the Perth Group (led by Eleni Papadopulos-Eleopulos), claim that scientists have failed to satisfy the second postulate; they claim that a precondition of isolation is (physical) purification of the virus and that HIV has not yet been purified.[10]
Mainstream scientists claim that numerous strains of HIV-1 and HIV-2 have been properly isolated and genotyped. They say that HIV does fulfill Koch's Postulates, and that exceptional cases are due to the imperfect sensitivity of HIV testing, or imperfect isolation techniques, rather than the absence of the virus.[11] They also argue that, in any case, total fulfilment Koch's postulates is not necessary to prove that HIV causes AIDS, since other evidence is abundant. Koch himself disregarded three postulates for cholera and typhoid.[12] Mainstream scientists assert that other diseases, such as Hepatitis C, do not fulfill all of Koch's postulates but are widely recognised as being caused by particular microbes.[citation needed] |
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hermes.trismegistus
Joined: 08 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:03 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| You didn't quote the second paragraph: |
As I said, as his many years as a CSICOP fascist... when confronted with anomolous data, claim that it simply cannot be... that sure sounds open-minded to me.
| Quote: |
Koch's postulates
Koch's postulates are a set of criteria formulated to establish a causal relationship between a suspected disease-causing organism and a disease. They are:
* The suspected cause must be present in every case of the disease.
* The suspected cause must be isolated from the host with the disease and grown in pure culture.
* The disease must be reproduced when a pure culture of the suspected cause is introduced into a healthy susceptible host.
* The suspected cause must be recoverable from the experimentally infected host.
Proof of the fulfillment of these postulates is considered a sufficient demonstration of the causality of a disease. According to dissidents, failure to satisfy these postulates, especially the first two, may cast doubt on HIV as the cause of AIDS. Some dissidents, for example Peter Duesberg, claim that Koch's first postulate is not adequately fulfilled because there are individual cases of AIDS in which HIV cannot be isolated.[9] Others, for example the Perth Group (led by Eleni Papadopulos-Eleopulos), claim that scientists have failed to satisfy the second postulate; they claim that a precondition of isolation is (physical) purification of the virus and that HIV has not yet been purified.[10]
Mainstream scientists claim that numerous strains of HIV-1 and HIV-2 have been properly isolated and genotyped. They say that HIV does fulfill Koch's Postulates, and that exceptional cases are due to the imperfect sensitivity of HIV testing, or imperfect isolation techniques, rather than the absence of the virus.[11] They also argue that, in any case, total fulfilment Koch's postulates is not necessary to prove that HIV causes AIDS, since other evidence is abundant. Koch himself disregarded three postulates for cholera and typhoid.[12] Mainstream scientists assert that other diseases, such as Hepatitis C, do not fulfill all of Koch's postulates but are widely recognised as being caused by particular microbes.[citation needed] |
They have never isolated HIV because if they did, there would be a Gold Standard. You can have seroconversion in the US but not in Canada, simply due to disparate definitions of protein markers. According to the Bangkui definition, no seroconversion is required - e.g you can be declared HIV+ in the absence of HIV.
HIV can be found in patients who never develop AIDS. Some AIDS patients never have HIV protein markers (all they test for are proteins, not actual viral particles).
You might try here, here, here, here, etc ad nauseum.
Orthodox advocates proclaim that in the absence of isolation, they still correlate association with causation (poor virology). That paradigm has seen billions of dollars wasted and not a single life has been saved, without a single drug developed which has been clearly demonstrated to prolong the life of seroconverted patients. Meanwhile, other holistic approaches have consistently reverted patients to HIV-.
The paradigm works fine for people whose career depends on it. Informed observers, including the thousands who signed the scientific reappraisal pact, have quite damning criticisms for any who can look beyond their conditioning.
Namaste. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| hermes.trismegistus wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| You didn't quote the second paragraph: |
As I said, as his many years as a CSICOP fascist... when confronted with anomolous data, claim that it simply cannot be... that sure sounds open-minded to me. |
You have some quotes? |
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