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waggo
Joined: 18 May 2003
Location: pusan baby!
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 Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Privateer wrote: |
| OP: so what you're saying is Columbus didn't discover America, he just made it all up, then people took him at his word and sailed the Atlantic, and - bam! - the joke was on him because it turns out it was there just like he said! |
Columbus, himself, never said that he had discovered new land. He always contended that he found a new route to Asia. People knew about Asia at the time, so that's what he used in his story. |
My conspiracy theory about conspiracy theorists is that they are all TWATS. |
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Hyalucent
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: British North America
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Guri Guy wrote: |
There is solid evidence that the Chinese discovered America in 1421. There is a good book I have been meaning to read for a while on the subject.
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Read the book and you may well wish to reconsider the use of the word "solid". Menzies' book is mostly full of circular self-referencing theories that prove nothing.
e.g. The only country that had a fleet that could accumulate the info that the Piri Reis map was based on was China, Menzies asserts.
Then, we know they had this fleet because of the existence of the Piri Reis map... however all other historical records were purged.
The scope and size of his mythical treasure fleets is insane. Basically dozens, if not hundreds, of ships larger than modern day naval frigates. Last I heard he was trying to find DNA evidence in the Maori that would show they partly descended from Chinese prostitutes. He wasn't making any friends in New Zealand that way.
"The Island of Seven Cities" has also been released lately, by Nova Scotia architect Paul Chiasson. He claims to have found a road and wall in Cape Breton that fit Chinese dimensions. A group of archaeologists just returned from the site and all they had to do was ask a few of the locals about it. The wall was an old fire break and the road was constructed between about 1950 and 1987.
If you're looking to fill in the gaps in exploration between the arrival of the aboriginals and the coming of Columbus, consider Prince Henry Sinclair (1398), Maddox of Wales (1170) or Brendan the Navigator (early Sixth century). Then of course there were the vikings, starting with Leif Erikson and also the Basque who definitely sailed the waters so are also theorized to have had fishing stations on shore (though I don't know if any have ever been found.)
There are also strong theories that explorers from Africa managed to reach South America, and some who believe that Egyptians also somehow influenced the Mi'kmaq of the Maritimes, on account of the similarities in their written languages. On a similar note, it's said that the Mandan Indians, when first met, already spoke Welsh and worshipped Christ.
I just turfed Menzies book and am reading "Swords at Sunset" by Michael Bradley right now. He's been collecting evidence of Templar related settlements from Nova Scotia, Lake Memphremagog in Quebec, and west to the Niagara escarpment, dating to the time between Sinclair's arrival in 1398 until a possible massacre of the colonists by Iroquois in 1571. |
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Newbie
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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Does it really matter? Why not put your effort into something important?
Yeah the Vikings were there earlier, but they didn't stick. So who cares. Maybe the Chinese came too, but they couldn't hack it either. It was Columbus who inspired all the other explorers that really turned the Americas into something,
Similarly, who cares if Korea may have had some kind of printing press before Guttenberg. It had no bearing on the rest of the world. Guttenberg's invention it the one that matters. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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To paraphrase, there are suckers born every century. It's the same cabal that has been trying to fleece us for thousands of years. The Templars, Zionists, and ruling elite.
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If you insist on being a nut-case, that's your business. You and IGTG probably have a lot in common. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| Hmmm. Either I don't do a good parody or the people here are too hard to parody. Or maybe a bit of both. |
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Cerriowen
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Location: Pocheon
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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I was talking to my (adult) students.
I mentioned something about what was happening in the Americas about 1,500 years ago.
They looked stunned and said "But there weren't any people there...."
I said "yes there were..."
They rolled their eyes and said "Well... unless you mean Indians or something." Very clearly implying that indians aren't *really* people.
Gotta love Korean mentality. |
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own_king
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Location: here
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| bluelake wrote: |
Columbus never discovered America. My ancestors knew it was there all along.
Member, Little Traverse Bay Bands of Odawa Indians |
True enough, you just happened to cross the Bering Straight. But now you have it made in Canada - free education, no tax, selling land and still claiming you own it to sell it again. I wish I had such a sweet deal. I could go back to England and say the land my great grandfather owned is still mine and I want to re-sell it lol. You guys have things pretty good, at least in Canada. |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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| own_king wrote: |
| True enough, you just happened to cross the Bering Straight. But now you have it made in Canada - free education, no tax, selling land and still claiming you own it to sell it again. I wish I had such a sweet deal. I could go back to England and say the land my great grandfather owned is still mine and I want to re-sell it lol. You guys have things pretty good, at least in Canada. |
Yeah! You tell 'em! |
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bluelake
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| own_king wrote: |
| bluelake wrote: |
Columbus never discovered America. My ancestors knew it was there all along.
Member, Little Traverse Bay Bands of Odawa Indians |
True enough, you just happened to cross the Bering Straight. But now you have it made in Canada - free education, no tax, selling land and still claiming you own it to sell it again. I wish I had such a sweet deal. I could go back to England and say the land my great grandfather owned is still mine and I want to re-sell it lol. You guys have things pretty good, at least in Canada. |
I'm not Canadian. |
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Benbby
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:39 am Post subject: |
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CC did not discover America? Hmm. I wonder who did.
I read in journal from one of my Korean students that Columbus had to convince a council of Europeans that the world was flat. Nonsense of course. The issue was the diameter of the earth, not its shape. Perhaps it is anitpathy to Europeans by aboriginals who resent being discovered. But America was big news to Europe, Asia, and Africa post 1492.
Hyphenated Latin Americans think the single word America and American should apply to their countries and themselves. While Canadians don't want to be Americans of the US at all. Columbus did not discover the USA. |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| Benbby wrote: |
CC did not discover America? Hmm. I wonder who did.
I read in journal from one of my Korean students that Columbus had to convince a council of Europeans that the world was flat. Nonsense of course. The issue was the diameter of the earth, not its shape. Perhaps it is anitpathy to Europeans by aboriginals who resent being discovered. But America was big news to Europe, Asia, and Africa post 1492.
Hyphenated Latin Americans think the single word America and American should apply to their countries and themselves. While Canadians don't want to be Americans of the US at all. Columbus did not discover the USA. |
I nominate this for post of the month, if only for this line:
| benbby wrote: |
| Columbus did not discover the USA |
The rest doesn't make any sense so I don't know if it's any good or not, but damn that's a good line. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:47 am Post subject: |
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It's funny, but who cares. Some stupid savage guy discovered it while it was still attached to the rest of Pangea 
Anyways, I want to know who first discovered the moon. 
Seriously, who cares what country did what? |
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Moldy Rutabaga
Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Location: Ansan, Korea
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:01 am Post subject: |
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| nor any of the non-perishable trade goods he claimed to have lavishly handed out to the natives he encountered |
This isn't directed at the OP!-- but come now, the fact that trade goods haven't been found hardly "proves" he wasn't there. Do we expect to find a city named Columbusia? Many of these arguments against Columbus lack a solid grounding; we can't know the exact motives for trusting him with ships and men, and we can't expect him to have an accurate first impression of what he saw. The Vikings built settlements in Newfoundland in the 11th centuries-- Columbus likely didn't stay long.
Although the Chinese briefly had a strong maritime tradition, no serious historian believes that Chinese explorers came anywhere near the new world in 1421. Salon.com's Natalie Danford calls Menzies' book "an object lesson in amateurish research, slapdash editing and publishing greed." Anyone who disputes his book is accused of western ethnocentrism. This is cheap historicism.
Ken:> |
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