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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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 Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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ddeubel wrote:
To end, to wit --- NOBODY WINS
That sounds lovely, you should be writing Hallmark cards.
The rest of us have to live in the real world, where there are winners and losers.
Sometimes it it not immediately obvious who is who, and sometimes the victory is pyrrhic, but to say that "it's war, so nobody won" is inaccurate and foolish. |
BSjo....
Have you ever been in the middle of a war zone???? I have and to say nobody wins is not a Hallmark card or not of the real world. It is reality. so please take your comments and file them away under I for ignorance.......
After war, during war, there is no forgetting. all is loss. You can count anyway you want and say "they won, they have more widgets" or "this side won, they have more alive" but in the REAL WORLD and not your distant broad sheet, all are losers. In real war there is weariness.....and the only minor victory is the moment it all ends. Then it continues in saddness, loss, debasement...........
Go write yourself a Hallmark card. I was in Croatia in 1991 and in Chechnya in the summer of 95. I didn't send any Hallmark cards home. I wrote about the horror and senselessness while your ilk was debating strategy of strategic bombing and who might WIN.....
DD |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
Have you ever been in the middle of a war zone????
Go write yourself a Hallmark card. I was in Croatia in 1991 and in Chechnya in the summer of 95. I didn't send any Hallmark cards home. I wrote about the horror and senselessness while your ilk was debating strategy of strategic bombing and who might WIN.....
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My 'ilk' was busy peacekeeping on the Kotor peninsula around the same time you were in Croatia.
War is horrible, kills people, most of them innocent, and in a perfect world it would never happen, no doubt about it.
But that doesn't change the fact that "Nobody wins" is a trite self evident platitude.
If everyone truly believed it there really would be no more war.
Q: Do you really think Hezbullah "lost" in this conflict? |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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Bulsajo,
Your version of war depends on the notion of "judging" and "counting". You can't count pain, you can't count the blowout of a nation's moral barometer, you can't count all the future's never realized or how a person might never "triumph". You can sure as hell count bodies, you sure as hell can count and put into dollar figures destruction , you sure as hell can count psyciatric sessions of those dispossessed in some manner. You can count many things. But what you end up with is NEGATIVE. I don't care if the number is higher or lower than anothers -- it is NEGATIVE and thus, nobody wins.
If you can't understand that logic, you yourself can write the Hallmark cards.
Hizbollah didn't win, Israel didn't win and the world in any quaint notion of "civilization" didn't win.
I know what your next response will be....it will be, "well , who won world War II? " Wasn't there a winner? I would respond, only on paper. Victory is short lived and a flash. We never know how time will cheat us, how time will change, it is temporal, illusionary.........I say this with all sincerity. We know so little. We claim victory with no knowledge what so ever and thus are wrong, ignorant...
DD |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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Again with the platitudes.
I get it- "War is Hell"
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| I don't care if the number is higher or lower than anothers -- it is NEGATIVE and thus, nobody wins. |
Again, in your opinion, nobody wins- I cxlearly understood what were saying the first time.
It's not that I don't get it, it's just that is clearly not the way the world works. To blame me personally for this is moronic, but I'd be lying if I said I hadn't already come to expect that from you.
Be honest here- can you find any Hezbullah supporter who claims this wasn't a Hezbullah victory?
In spite of your "nobody wins" mantra, this was clearly the case. And civilians, both Lebanese and Israeli, are clearly the losers. As is the IDF. Iran and Syria have by association 'won' as well in terms of prestige and having backed a player who can fight Israel to a standstill.
Ddeubel you have claimed to understand the culture and the rhetoric orf the region, do you deny that common view is that this is a victory against Israel?
Arab media view Hezbollah as victor after cease-fire
Hizbullah has achieved what other Arab states only dreamed of
Syria, Iran more powerful than ever: Many experts say that Hezbollah�s victory in Lebanon has given a noticeable boost to Iran and Syria�s strength, specially in facing challenges and disputes with the West. |
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Mitch Comestein
Joined: 13 Jun 2006
Location: South
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| happeningthang wrote: |
| Oh, sorry... you did write links to sites like the one you parroted, and the snide comment at the end. |
Are you angry or just devoid of manners? Of course I copied that source, and cited a link to that page. It's what you do on the internet. You cut, paste, and cite. Parroting? Doing my work for me? Are you sane? I did the work! I gave you the sources!
You think that you're Batman because you realized that I pasted the article? IT WASN"T A SECRET!
And, I do mean all countries, U.S. icluded as of late, are getting their news from pro Lebanese sources. You know. Sources that use doctored pictures and such? |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Ddeubel you have claimed to understand the culture and the rhetoric orf the region, do you deny that common view is that this is a victory against Israel? |
I don't deny this view at all. You are correct but again I have to say it is "perceived victory".
also Israel perceives victory despite the criticism of their own media and commentators. I find very few Israelis even mentioning having lost. They say they won outright despite not fulfilling all objectives.
So both sides believe they have won. Many people of all types "perceive" victory. But again I state, nobody won . and until that is the case for the most part, there is little hope for peace. We, men, people are ruled by illusion and this notion of "victory" in war is the greatest ruse of them all...........
but you are right, there is perception of victory but it is not unanimous at all that Hizbollah won. It is all debateable. I still have people telling me that Japan won the second world war. They also have a point. So I say again, it is all illusion and the honest answer is everyone is a loser....
DD |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| I still have people telling me that Japan won the second world war. |
I'd certainly like to hear that line of reasoning.
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| They also have a point. |
Really? I'd like to hear your reasoning on that even more.
Is there no common reference?
Winning is losing, losing is winning, black is white, up is down?
Then there really is no point in trying to communicate with each other if that's the case. |
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sundubuman
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
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However, Arabs, never known for fact-based reasoning, now feel that (emotionally) hizbollah somehow defeated Israel.....
Oh the great victory!!!!!!
Anyhow, after observing the Korean psyche for many years, which I think strangely parallels the Arab psyche (esp. vis-a-vis 'foreigners').......
I'm wondering if this great, stupendous, wonderful, amazing, unheralded "victory" by an Arab cultist terror gang, may actually calm down the insanity of the Arab street. Wounded pride healed via Al-Jazeerah....good medicine.......
any thoughts? |
Thoughts? You are entirely devoid of any of them...........
Once more you show how "unreasonable" you are. Indicating that you know a lot about "Arabs" because you have observed Koreans. Go back to school and learn some methodology.....
Further, you know nothing of Arab culture if you write such broad and racist remarks. Arab culture is NOT insular , any more than America can be said to be so. Please inform yourself about Arab culture and stop with the mere and ignorant self proclaimed statements of a misanthrope.
To end, to wit --- NOBODY WINS. THAT IS WHY WAR IS STUPID AND THOSE LIKE YOU WHO "COUNT" ARE STUPID. this is logical assumption, one + one = 2.
Please go back to school.
DD |
Again the idiocy of crying "racism" rears its ignorant head. If a Canadian blathers on about Americans, is he racist??
Arabs are NOT A RACE. They are Caucasian, Berber, African....it's a melange of races that make up the Arab world. However, THE CULTURE that predominates in the region is one that is still very very connected with pride/shame, as is much of East Asian culture, particularly Korea.
My premise in the OP was that this "victory" may actually douse the flames of fanatic hatred....
And just to reiterate, neither Muslims nor the "Arab World" are a race.
And while we're at it, neither is Israel/Jews.
Got that everyone? |
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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Mitch Comestein wrote: |
| happeningthang wrote: |
| Oh, sorry... you did write links to sites like the one you parroted, and the snide comment at the end. |
Are you angry or just devoid of manners? Of course I copied that source, and cited a link to that page. It's what you do on the internet. You cut, paste, and cite. Parroting? Doing my work for me? Are you sane? I did the work! I gave you the sources!
You think that you're Batman because you realized that I pasted the article? IT WASN"T A SECRET!
And, I do mean all countries, U.S. icluded as of late, are getting their news from pro Lebanese sources. You know. Sources that use doctored pictures and such? |
Hey, it was late...Yeh, I saw later that you did post the link to your cut and paste post...so, I apologise for that, you did acknowledge your sources.
However, that still doesn't counter the arguments I made against it, and you're still offering up a source of propaganda to speak for yourself. The only credible basis for this conspiracy is the insignificant doctoring job shown on Little Green Footballs. This claim of media bias is a hysterical, partisan reaction. |
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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| beck's wrote: |
Hezbollah won because Hezbollah now controls southern Lebanon. The Israelis did not destroy their presence in the south. Israel retreated before Hezbollah's ability to make war was destroyed.
I also think that hezbollah won the media war. At least one Canadian Liberal M.P. is calling for Hezbollah to be taken off of the terrorist list. World opinion, molded by the media, thinks that the Lebanese were the victims in the war. Day after day we were treated to Muslim women crying over perfectly arranged dead bodies miraculously free of the dust created by the exploding rockets. I didn't see one Israeli crying over a dead family member and yet Hezbollah was targeting civilian areas with rockets whose payloads were composed of ball bearings.
Meanwhile Iran, the puppeteer of Hezbollah, continues to enrich uranium. |
Hold the phone!!! Israel DID NOT retreat. The UN forced them to stop. |
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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:04 pm Post subject: People, he bottom line is... |
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Tactically speaking, Israel won.
The UN will be in Southern Lebanon, Hizbollah will have less wiggle room, and now Hizbollah is a problem to the international community not just Israel. They were put "on the map" so to speak.
They have alot less room to operate.
Hezbollah can claim a win all they want, that doesn't mean anything.
After the original Gulf War, Saddam claimed victory. Does that mean he didn't lose? No. He lost.
The only thing that can be said for them is that Hizbollah was saved by the UN. Were it not the UN's overall anti-semetic slant, Israel would habe destroyed Hizbollah completely. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:44 am Post subject: Re: People, he bottom line is... |
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| NAVFC wrote: |
The only thing that can be said for them is that Hizbollah was saved by the UN. Were it not the UN's overall anti-semetic slant, Israel would habe destroyed Hizbollah completely. |
1. Israel agreed to the cease-fire. It wasn't forced to accept
2. Had israel carpet-bombed and/or nuked southern lebanon (ie doing all it could to destroy Hezballah "completely"), it would have put relations with MANY, MANY countries at risk. It would have taken things back to pre-Camp David Accords. I think many Israelis would be more willing to put up with the pest that is Hizballah than have no relations with its two most powerful neighbors: Jordan and Egypt. |
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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:48 am Post subject: Re: People, he bottom line is... |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| NAVFC wrote: |
The only thing that can be said for them is that Hizbollah was saved by the UN. Were it not the UN's overall anti-semetic slant, Israel would habe destroyed Hizbollah completely. |
1. Israel agreed to the cease-fire. It wasn't forced to accept
2. Had israel carpet-bombed and/or nuked southern lebanon (ie doing all it could to destroy Hezballah "completely"), it would have put relations with MANY, MANY countries at risk. It would have taken things back to pre-Camp David Accords. I think many Israelis would be more willing to put up with the pest that is Hizballah than have no relations with its two most powerful neighbors: Jordan and Egypt. |
1. Israel was pressured and coerced into it. Do you really think Israel would have ended it's campaign were it not for international pressure? No.
2.Who said anything about carpet bombing or nuking? |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:52 am Post subject: Re: People, he bottom line is... |
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| NAVFC wrote: |
Tactically speaking, Israel won.
The UN will be in Southern Lebanon, Hizbollah will have less wiggle room, and now Hizbollah is a problem to the international community not just Israel. They were put "on the map" so to speak.
They have alot less room to operate.
Hezbollah can claim a win all they want, that doesn't mean anything.
After the original Gulf War, Saddam claimed victory. Does that mean he didn't lose? No. He lost.
The only thing that can be said for them is that Hizbollah was saved by the UN. Were it not the UN's overall anti-semetic slant, Israel would habe destroyed Hizbollah completely. |
You seem to be under the false asumption that victory on the battlefield, and only victory on the battlefield constitutes a win. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:37 am Post subject: Re: People, he bottom line is... |
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| NAVFC wrote: |
1. Israel was pressured and coerced into it. Do you really think Israel would have ended it's campaign were it not for international pressure? No.
2.Who said anything about carpet bombing or nuking? |
1. don't forget domestic pressure. But sure, I agree international pressure had something to do with it. That is different than what you seemed to be saying (the UN forced Israel into agreeing)
2. Obviously I did. How would you think Hizballah would be totally eliminated? Massive killing on Israel's part. Sure, there are other ways to go about it than those two, but they wouldn't be any more "humane." |
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