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Why do they go to the west?
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dulouz



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Uranus

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to throw a very modest crumb to Muslims. There seems to be problems with the second generation. Thats normal. Second generations are notoriously spoiled - example 1960's. Mom and dad had it hard - the kids see affluence as normal. Those kids were brats.
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happeningthang



Joined: 26 Apr 2003

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigverne wrote:
Quote:
Let's just say there's not too many middle class kids joining up


Actually, the majority of would be Jihadis in the West are middle class and well educated. This has been shown time and time again, but it doesn't seem to stop people trotting out the usual nonsense about poverty and alienation being the prime causes of terrorism. Of course, this avoids any discussion of the elephant in the room, Islam.


If I'm talking about people converting, then the power of Islam, in elephant form or otherwise, isn't a contributing factor to them joining up, is it?
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flip ant



Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Location: He's got high hopes!

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dulouz wrote:
I'm going to throw a very modest crumb to Muslims. There seems to be problems with the second generation. Thats normal. Second generations are notoriously spoiled - example 1960's. Mom and dad had it hard - the kids see affluence as normal. Those kids were brats.


You know, that's a great point. Having lived in Saudi Arabia for two years, I've seen the spoiled rotten nature of the younger generation. They don't want to work and expect "lesser" people to cater to their every whim with every step they take. I've heard them rail on about the U.S. and smile when 9/11 is mentioned. I was in a room of military officers on the 4th anniversary of 9/11 and watched them mock planes flying into buildings with their hands. Great fun. God, I wish we could ween ourselves from oil.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yo!Chingo wrote:
bucheon bum wrote:
dulouz wrote:
They come to the West first and foremost becuase of the welfare checks. Its pretty simple. No welfare checks, no Muslims.


bucheon bum wrote:
so then how are there muslims that have immigrated to america? immigrants don't receive welfare in the USA.


I only wish that were true. Immigrants do recieve welfare in the US. I saw that on a first hand basis when I worked at a grocery store and probably 2 out of 5 people who would give me food stamps couldn't even speak English.


bucheon bum wrote:
let me guess, they were all spanish speakers right?


bucheon bum wrote:
And you know they were immigrants how exactly?

Nope, actually no spanish...muslims with 3-4 kids in tow with very little English abilities. I on numerous occasions tried to talk with them to be friendly.


:cough: bullshit :cough:

Now if you lived in the area of Dearborn, MI I MIGHT believe you, or even parts of NYC, but anywhere else? No.
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Yo!Chingo



Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: Seoul Korea

PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucheon bum wrote:
Yo!Chingo wrote:
bucheon bum wrote:
dulouz wrote:
They come to the West first and foremost becuase of the welfare checks. Its pretty simple. No welfare checks, no Muslims.


bucheon bum wrote:
so then how are there muslims that have immigrated to america? immigrants don't receive welfare in the USA.


I only wish that were true. Immigrants do recieve welfare in the US. I saw that on a first hand basis when I worked at a grocery store and probably 2 out of 5 people who would give me food stamps couldn't even speak English.


bucheon bum wrote:
let me guess, they were all spanish speakers right?


bucheon bum wrote:
And you know they were immigrants how exactly?

Nope, actually no spanish...muslims with 3-4 kids in tow with very little English abilities. I on numerous occasions tried to talk with them to be friendly.


:cough: *beep* :cough:

Now if you lived in the area of Dearborn, MI I MIGHT believe you, or even parts of NYC, but anywhere else? No.


You calling me a liar?!? I'm telling you I worked in a Raleigh N.C(Harris Teeter) grocery store for 3 years as a part-time job and many of our customers were middle eastern. The area that I worked in had a fairly high middle eastern population b/c of N.C State and Rex Hospital. I guess professors, doctors, and their kin. Of those that came through my line who were middle eastern and had children 90% used the WIC program and/or food stamp cards.
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beck's



Joined: 02 Aug 2006

PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take a look at this:

Theocracy on the 100 Year Plan-- America has its own "Islamic fascists" right here at home.
FrontPageMagazine.com
August 15, 2006
by Paul Sperry

excerpt..
Until that time, CAIR and other Muslim activists are steadily institutionalizing Islam at the local level, exploiting the very religious freedoms and tolerances they would ban. Here are some recent milestones:

* In North Seattle, Wash., a public pool agreed to set up a swim time for Muslim women in which men, even male lifeguards, are banned.

* In Hamtramck, Mich., officials amended a noise ordinance to let mosques broadcast calls to prayer over loudspeakers -- despite complaints that the Arabic chants, repeated five times a day, are a nuisance.

* In Irvington, N.J., public schools agreed to close for Muslim holidays, joining schools in Paterson and Trenton, as well as ones in Dearborn, Mich., that have recognized Islamic holy days.

* In Fairfax, Va., public schools agreed to produce local TV announcements in Arabic and Farsi.

* In San Francisco, a federal appeals court gave its blessing to Muslim role-playing exercises in California public schools, even though the pro-Islamic lessons -- written by Saudi-backed consultants -- appear designed to promote the religion rather than simply teach its history.

* In Kansas City, airport officials agreed to install special wash basins in restrooms for Muslim taxi drivers who complained they couldn't easily wash their feet before praying.

What if Muslim activists could realize their dream of overturning the entire U.S. system of government in favor of a religious police state for Allah? What then? Think Iran, think Saudi. And picture the following:

* New York without Lady Liberty -- the statue would be one of the first monuments destroyed. Even the Starbucks goddess would be scrubbed from the coffee chain's logo, as was done in Saudi Arabia.

* Women covered from head to toe while in public, forbidden from baring their legs, arms, necks, hair and even ears except in the company of other women or their husbands or close male relatives.

* Legalized domestic violence, as per the Quran. (Husbands may beat their wives, but only after verbal warnings and a period of sexual denial fail to correct their disobedience.)

* Legalized polygyny -- one man married to more than one wife -- with up to four wives per man.

* Men divorcing their wives simply by orally declaring "I divorce you" three times. (The split is then valid. The Quran doesn't offer the same right to wives. Also, fathers would automatically get custody of children.)

* Women barred from voting or driving.

* Two female witnesses required in court for every one male witness.

* Thieves with amputated right hands.

* Homosexuals put to death.

* Critics of Muhammad locked up (cartoonists included).

* Apostates executed.

* Liquor stores shut down. Beer and wine yanked from grocery store shelves, along with pork products and dog food (as dogs are barred from households under Islam). Napa out of business.

* Razed churches and synagogues. Bibles removed from all hotel rooms.

* Non-Muslims driving in separate lanes, using separate bathrooms.

* Playing cards and chips banned (since gambling is haram, forbidden, by Islam). Las Vegas bankrupt.

* "The Three Little Pigs" burned, along with Piglet dolls (as pigs are considered vile in Islam).

* Toilets facing the appropriate direction toward Mecca.

* Mortgages, credit cards, savings accounts, life insurance and most retirement funds outlawed (because they're based on interest, which also is forbidden by Islam). Wall Street shuttered.

* Industries dealing in alcohol, entertainment, pork products, conventional banking services and other so-called vices forbidden by the Quran also shut down. Economic depression.

* Birthday parties forbidden (because there is no evidence in the Quran that Muhammad celebrated his birthday, and devout Muslims strive to imitate their prophet's life in every way).

* No more Thanksgiving (replaced by Ramadan) or Christmas (replaced by Eid).

* Museums and art galleries closed (as Islam bans human representation in art).

* Media critical of the emir of the White House censored.

* Arabic as the official language of America.

* "In Allah We Trust" emblazoned on our currency.

Don't laugh -- especially you 49% who told Gallup you believe U.S. Muslims are loyal to the United States. Given high Muslim immigration and birth rates, their dream could one day be within reach. Some sharia laws are already recognized in parts of Canada and Europe. And America is no less a target of a global Islamic movement to pressure Western society into abiding by Islamic laws.

The movement is driven by the militant Muslim Brotherhood and bankrolled by Arab governments. In addition to Saudi funding, CAIR just last month got an endowment from the United Arab Emirates (which already owns the deed to CAIR's D.C. headquarters) to help launch a new $50 million campaign to mainstream Islam in America.

Part of that campaign involves stocking U.S. libraries -- first in neighborhoods, then college campuses -- with pro-Islamic propaganda. It also involves pressuring corporate America to accommodate Muslim religious customs in the workplace, such as giving Muslim employees time off to attend Friday mosque and letting them wear head scarves and beards even when it violates long-standing dress codes and presents safety and security issues.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yo!Chingo wrote:
bucheon bum wrote:
Yo!Chingo wrote:
bucheon bum wrote:
dulouz wrote:
They come to the West first and foremost becuase of the welfare checks. Its pretty simple. No welfare checks, no Muslims.


bucheon bum wrote:
so then how are there muslims that have immigrated to america? immigrants don't receive welfare in the USA.


I only wish that were true. Immigrants do recieve welfare in the US. I saw that on a first hand basis when I worked at a grocery store and probably 2 out of 5 people who would give me food stamps couldn't even speak English.

bucheon bum wrote:
let me guess, they were all spanish speakers right?


bucheon bum wrote:
And you know they were immigrants how exactly?

Nope, actually no spanish...muslims with 3-4 kids in tow with very little English abilities. I on numerous occasions tried to talk with them to be friendly.


:cough: *beep* :cough:

Now if you lived in the area of Dearborn, MI I MIGHT believe you, or even parts of NYC, but anywhere else? No.


You calling me a liar?!? I'm telling you I worked in a Raleigh N.C(Harris Teeter) grocery store for 3 years as a part-time job and many of our customers were middle eastern. The area that I worked in had a fairly high middle eastern population b/c of N.C State and Rex Hospital. I guess professors, doctors, and their kin. Of those that came through my line who were middle eastern and had children 90% used the WIC program and/or food stamp cards.


So you're telling me families of professors and doctors required assistance? The max salary a family can earn to get assistance is a little under 35K. Professors and doctors make less than that in NC? Yikes.

Quote:
They must meet income guidelines, a State residency requirement, and be individually determined to be at �nutrition risk� by a health professional.To be eligible on the basis of income, applicants� income must fall at or below 185 percent of the U.S. Poverty Income Guidelines (currently $34,873 for a family of four).


WIC Program

I do stand corrected, however; all you need, at least for WIC, is to be a State resident. That being said, you have to be determined to be a "nutrition risk" in order to get the money.

I also stand a little corrected for the food stamp program. You have to be in the country for at least 5 years before qualifying, although, since 2003, all kids do qualify.

Immigrant Eligibility Requirements

A summmary of a study done by the Carnagie Endowment for International Peace:

Immigrants and Welfare

So, yes, immigrants can get some forms of welfare but:

1. It is harder to get than in the EU
2. It is not wide-spread

I'm out of time (gotta get to work) but I'll look into it further.

Oh, and back to the NC experience: how do you know they were Arab and not South Asian? Doesn't make a difference (since we're arguing about immigration in general) but just curious.
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
* In North Seattle, Wash., a public pool agreed to set up a swim time for Muslim women in which men, even male lifeguards, are banned.


Can't go along with this. Gender segregation in the name of religion should never be permitted.

Quote:
* In Hamtramck, Mich., officials amended a noise ordinance to let mosques broadcast calls to prayer over loudspeakers -- despite complaints that the Arabic chants, repeated five times a day, are a nuisance.


I'm of a mixed mind on this one. The RCMP in Canada have amended the uniform code to allow Sikh officers to wear their turbans, and Catholics have long enjoyed exemption from the liquor laws to give alciohol to kids. On the other hand, how far do we want to take the principle that long-standing laws can be changed to accomodate someone's religion? And Muslims in my hometown of Edmonton seemed to get along just fine without calls to prayer being broadcast over loudspeakers.

Quote:
* In Irvington, N.J., public schools agreed to close for Muslim holidays, joining schools in Paterson and Trenton, as well as ones in Dearborn, Mich., that have recognized Islamic holy days.


I don't really have a problem with this, and five'll get ya ten that the guys at FrontPage Magazine are screaming at the top of their lungs for everyone to be saying Chrirstian prayers in the public schools. I guess I can see how it might violate 1st Amendment principles, in a way that having Christmas off doesn't. Because, unlike Christmas, Muslim holidays serve no secular purpose.

Quote:
* In Fairfax, Va., public schools agreed to produce local TV announcements in Arabic and Farsi.


As most of you know, I detest anti-Americanism more than anything. However, the above comment is pretty much begging for someone to reply with a crack about Americans having enough difficulty with English, so how can they be expected to hear Farsi.

Quote:
* In San Francisco, a federal appeals court gave its blessing to Muslim role-playing exercises in California public schools, even though the pro-Islamic lessons -- written by Saudi-backed consultants -- appear designed to promote the religion rather than simply teach its history.


Wasn't this a big issue about six months after 9/11? I'd like to know more about the exercises before passing judgment. Suffice to say, I don't quite trust FrontPage's account.

Quote:
* In Kansas City, airport officials agreed to install special wash basins in restrooms for Muslim taxi drivers who complained they couldn't easily wash their feet before praying.


I suppose this would violate 1st Amendment principles, though I wouldn't see it as being a problem in countries with a less strict attitude toward Church/State. On a purely practical level, I don't see how it violates anyone's rights or even inconveniences anyone.

Suffice to say, I don't see how anything on this list comes anywhere near being "Islamic Fascism". The rest of the article is a sci-fi dystopian fantasy, not meriting a response.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

beck's wrote:
Take a look at this:


I did- quickly.

:yawn:

There are 12 million Muslims at most in the USA. What's that? 5% of the population? Uh oh!
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daskalos



Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: The Road to Ithaca

PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't be silly. "They" (as all theys throughout history) go "there" because "there" is less of a horrible, forsaken hell hole than "here." What they do once they arrive is a different matter; that depends of who they were before they left their hell holes and whom they find in their new havens.
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stevieg4ever



Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Location: London, England

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucheon bum please see the below link for words on integration and muslim assimilation although i find the rhetoric quite disturbing in places here is what the majority of the uk really think and feel about it.

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?threadID=3431&&edition=1&ttl=20060824132908
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dulouz



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Uranus

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll claify my welfare remark. There are very bad welfare statistics in The UK concerning Muslims and welfare. There is a genuine whiff mischief in those statistics as well. Not in the accuracy or the direct interpretation but you get a genuine sense of very deliberate antagonism in the motivation.

There is less welfare abuse/use in the US. Anecdotal evidence is generally bad but there are some titlating stories. Lewiston Maine got picked by the Somalies as a place to live in and they picked the place precisely because there were no jobs there and there aren't going to be any for a long time. They actively pursued a lifetime of leisure and work avoidence.


To those who advocate tolerance, I offer this thought.

As you make me feel, I will make you feel. I feel unwelcome in Islamic countries. I face corrupt governments, bad economies, violent crime and cultural hostility. When there are dozens of churches and temples in Saudi Arabia, then and only then will you have the integrity to talk to me about tolerance. We are mad at you because you talk to us like we are stupid and we are really tired of it.


If you want to make the message clear
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ddeubel



Joined: 20 Jul 2005

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be incorrect for me to make any categorization of Americans based on dulouz and his comments above.

That said, he doesnt promote anything other than the notion of stupidity which he valiantly says he fights against.

Intolerant would be too mild a word for you.......Youd make a remarkable psychiatric casestudy. find yourself a couch or maybe a fishing rod. There you can contemplate all that must have went wrong in your life and come to grips with your hate.

DD
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dulouz



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Uranus

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DD - Israel is Jewish only state, a home for the Jewish Race, a home for the Jewish Religion all run by Halaca. The Jews says they are favored by God, that they are the chosen ones. The Jews according to Jews, are the master race. Tolerance DD?
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happeningthang



Joined: 26 Apr 2003

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevieg4ever wrote:
bucheon bum please see the below link for words on integration and muslim assimilation although i find the rhetoric quite disturbing in places here is what the majority of the uk really think and feel about it.

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?threadID=3431&&edition=1&ttl=20060824132908


What have the "majority" of people in theUK responded to this BBC poll thingy?? Looking through it, there seems to be a lot of frustration, but I feel there is support for multiculturalism, as long as there is some intergration, rather than isolationism.
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