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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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 Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Lenin and Trotsky oversaw the violent murder of Nicholas II and his entire family, among others. |
The murder of the Romanov children was likely carried out for strategic reasons, to prevent the royalists from having a figure to rally around. If you can defend the bombings of Dresden and Hiroshima as useful toward strategic ends, why not the killing of four children?
And in my view, only the childrens' killing is a matter of moral import. Nicholas II and his wife were hardly innocent bystanders. The only objection one could have to their killing is a general opposition to capital punishment. |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| sundubuman wrote: |
| I think Dogbert needs to get together with Mel Gibson for a few drinks, get arrested, and share his anti-semitism with the entire world.... |
When did it become a moral imperative to love Jews and hate Muslims? I wish you would shut up finally, move to Judea and get your mouthy ass shot off. |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
| dogbert wrote: |
| I think AIPAC has far too much pernicious influence in the U.S. I said the same about IRA influence. I am opposed to foreign factions (which is what AIPAC truly is) lobbying to affect U.S. domestic and foreign policies. Do you have an argument in favor of that, Joo? |
Well, it's the American system of lobbying that's at fault. Is it any particular industry's fault that they use the system to their advantage? Same applies to states NGOs and all others. Lobbying isn't really a choice in Washington.
But bragging about how successful your lobbying is pretty stupid regardless of who you are and what you're lobbying for. |
I agree with you. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| Would you include the Red Army's murder and rape of German civilians in 1945 on your list of Communist atrocities? And if not, why not? |
I am not interested in constructing and then peddling the declensional type of history the far left constructs and peddles about the United States.
Just pointing out that the Soviets had a very dark side, too, and that this dark side was a part of who they were and not what their Western opponents forced onto them. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Lenin and Trotsky oversaw the violent murder of Nicholas II and his entire family, among others. |
The murder of the Romanov children was likely carried out for strategic reasons, to prevent the royalists from having a figure to rally around. If you can defend the bombings of Dresden and Hiroshima as useful toward strategic ends, why not the killing of four children?
And in my view, only the childrens' killing is a matter of moral import. Nicholas II and his wife were hardly innocent bystanders. The only objection one could have to their killing is a general opposition to capital punishment. |
That is correct. You can certainly understand and explain these events, all of the events you cite -- without either approving or disapproving them.
And in any case, I think you can agree with me that if you were a ruler, an owner of the existing means of production, a high-ranking military officer, or any other elite, and saw examples like what was done to the Romanovs, it is understandable that you might react severely to any Marxist threat and indeed become anticommunist.
Those who held anticommunist views were not merely afraid of losing their wealth... |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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ust pointing out that the Soviets had a very dark side, too, and that this dark side was a part of who they were and not what their Western opponents forced onto them.
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This I can say is a big understatement................not agreeing but rather as you know for my rhetorical flourish and penchant for exactness, saying it is like commenting that Hitler was a bit anti Semitc......if you get my drift.....
DD
Im no Ronald Reagan but I do know a few things about how Russians (and I would say Russian rather than Soviet in the above quote) act.......... |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| dogbert wrote: |
| I think AIPAC has far too much pernicious influence in the U.S. I said the same about IRA influence. I am opposed to foreign factions (which is what AIPAC truly is) lobbying to affect U.S. domestic and foreign policies. Do you have an argument in favor of that, Joo? |
No , but I would add that a lot of the reasons for the success of APIC is that they have some valid points. If they didn't then they would not be as successful as they have. |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| dogbert wrote: |
| I think AIPAC has far too much pernicious influence in the U.S. I said the same about IRA influence. I am opposed to foreign factions (which is what AIPAC truly is) lobbying to affect U.S. domestic and foreign policies. Do you have an argument in favor of that, Joo? |
No , but I would add that a lot of the reasons for the success of APIC is that they have some valid points. If they didn't then they would not be as successful as they have. |
I disagree.
The primary reasons for AIPAC's success:
1) Lots of money to give
2) Substantial numbers of Jewish politicians in Washington
3) Distrust/hatred of Arabs/Muslims
4) White guilt
That's it.
By the way, the NRA also has an extremely successful lobby. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| dogbert wrote: |
By the way, the NRA also has an extremely successful lobby. |
Don't forget AARP! |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
dogbert wrote:
I think AIPAC has far too much pernicious influence in the U.S. I said the same about IRA influence. I am opposed to foreign factions (which is what AIPAC truly is) lobbying to affect U.S. domestic and foreign policies. Do you have an argument in favor of that, Joo?
No , but I would add that a lot of the reasons for the success of APIC is that they have some valid points. |
Joo:
Just out of curiousity, what valid points do you think AIPAC is making? The reason I ask is because if I'm not mistaken, you're the guy who was saying a while back that the US should stop funding Israel. That would seem to be the polar opposite of the AIPAC position. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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Yes I think the US ought to not give money to Israel , however I think the US ought to vote its conscious at the UN - especially the General Assembly which is a dictators club. I also don't think the US ought to set its foreign policy because Bathists , Khomeni lovers or Bin Laden followers will get violent if the US doesn't do what they demand.
Apics valid point- they are right about what Bathists , Khomeni lovers and Bin Laden followers are about. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="in_seoul_2003"]"I know Tel Aviv has referred to them as "animals." But are the Israelis saying anything like this -- something like "don't be a Palestinian!" -- to each other?"
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| The materials used to educate a very substantial fragment of their children is. Absolutely. Far worse, in fact. I've detailed this before with reference to textbooks and religious organizations responsible for educating a very large body of students. |
go to memri.com and have it out w/ in Seoul 1933 . He will lose.
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| You are very fond of resuscitaing the issues regarding the Americas. I do in fact take this to mean that they remain very unresolved for you and that they probably caught you off guard more than you even suspected yourself. I'm not necessarily saying this in an intellectually contentious way, only that you are probably accustomed to certain comments which allow you to respond with how much the Soviets were truly involved and recently de-classified documents detailing the exact extent and so and so forth. |
Sandanistas we shipped weapons |
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in_seoul_2003
Joined: 24 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:08 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by in_seoul_2003 on Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:16 am Post subject: |
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Apics valid point- they are right about what Bathists , Khomeni lovers and Bin Laden followers are about.
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Well, okay. But you said AIPAC's success at lobbying was due to their valid points. But somehow, I don't think that Congress needs AIPAC to tell them that Baathists, fundamentalist Shiites, and Al Qaeda are up to no good. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| Subversive fascist = combination of the far left and the far right. |
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