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shifdog
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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 Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| red dog wrote: |
Laogaiguk wrote:
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| The point of the last few pages was how is eating dog meat (done humanely) any different from other meat (done humanely)? |
That's an oversimplification. Another very important question here is whether banning the industry would be a positive step for Korea, even if all the other immoral industries -- which also don't deserve to exist -- don't disappear right away. I have mixed feelings about it, but maybe the anti-dog meat campaign will encourage people to think about other animals too and eventually increase interest in vegetarianism.
You also write about a "humane" dog meat industry as if this is ever going to happen. If the industry grows, more dogs will be kept in closer confinement. Dogs go insane when they have to live in cages for months, and it costs money to send inspectors out to monitor how animals are killed -- do you really think the politicians are going to spend a lot of money on this? If they don't, who will? Private charities? I think it's naive to believe that any animal product can be produced "humanely" on a large scale -- encouraging the growth of an exceptionally cruel industry is only going to increase the cruelty, no matter what the politicians say. |
This will be done the same way cows, chickens, pigs, fish, and any other meat is raised, culled, and slaughtered. Just because it moves, makes noise, and is deemed intelligent doesn't mean it's wrong to eat. If we are all mammals, and mammals eat mammals, there is nothing wrong. Do you try to stop wolves from eating sheep? |
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flotsam
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:04 am Post subject: |
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Mmmmm...sheep.
And while I am at it: lgg, what the hell are you doing? Go post in a more useful thread, your efforts are best employed elsewhere. Engaging the "thinkers" in this thread can best be done with the Homer method:
H-Method:
Step 1: Ask rational question.
Step 2: Receive moronic/hysteric response in public.
Step 3: Repeat.
Last edited by flotsam on Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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red dog
Joined: 31 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:09 am Post subject: |
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Laogaiguk wrote:
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I disagree. You ask for too much me thinks. Support the ones who treat them humanely and create laws against torture. This will close down most of the bad ones. Then work from there for yor goals atleast. Also, there will never be a market like you are talking about for dog, so while I see what you are saying, I don't think it works with dogs.
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How would you determine whether the dogs have been treated "humanely"? Most companion dogs don't get adequate care -- are butchers really going to give the dogs room to run, attention, companionship, proper vet care, etc., when it won't pay off at the market? Animals raised for "food" are treated abominably and "free-range" labels are usually misleading. You don't make a profit treating animals humanely.
And in this case, there's a market for tortured animals -- unless you actually videotape the slaughter, no one can prove it was "inhumane." So you'll end up with a law on paper that can't be enforced.
People make changes all kinds of different ways and if you find it easier to cut out meat bit by bit, go for it. I don't think it's the only possible way of doing it, but it is one way. |
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red dog
Joined: 31 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| shifdog wrote: |
| red dog wrote: |
Laogaiguk wrote:
| Quote: |
| The point of the last few pages was how is eating dog meat (done humanely) any different from other meat (done humanely)? |
That's an oversimplification. Another very important question here is whether banning the industry would be a positive step for Korea, even if all the other immoral industries -- which also don't deserve to exist -- don't disappear right away. I have mixed feelings about it, but maybe the anti-dog meat campaign will encourage people to think about other animals too and eventually increase interest in vegetarianism.
You also write about a "humane" dog meat industry as if this is ever going to happen. If the industry grows, more dogs will be kept in closer confinement. Dogs go insane when they have to live in cages for months, and it costs money to send inspectors out to monitor how animals are killed -- do you really think the politicians are going to spend a lot of money on this? If they don't, who will? Private charities? I think it's naive to believe that any animal product can be produced "humanely" on a large scale -- encouraging the growth of an exceptionally cruel industry is only going to increase the cruelty, no matter what the politicians say. |
This will be done the same way cows, chickens, pigs, fish, and any other meat is raised, culled, and slaughtered. Just because it moves, makes noise, and is deemed intelligent doesn't mean it's wrong to eat. If we are all mammals, and mammals eat mammals, there is nothing wrong. Do you try to stop wolves from eating sheep? |
Maybe a sheep will eat you. Don't you ever worry about that? |
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shifdog
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| A sheep will not eat me because I am stronger than a sheep. If a sheep does eat me, props to it. Survival of the fittest baby! |
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Donkey Beer
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:24 am Post subject: |
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All alone, or in two's,
The ones who really love animals
Post day in and day out on Dave's ESL cafe
Some hand in hand
And some gathered together in bands.
The bleeding hearts
Make their stand.
And when they've given you their all
Some stagger and fall, after all it's not easy
Banging your heart against some mad bugger's wall. |
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riverboy
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
Location: Incheon
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| Moral reasons. I support animal rights. Does this help? |
Not really. I can respect your opinion and commend you for your ideals, but as 99% of humans are decended from hunter gatherer societies which all did indeed eat meat, it is a natural phenomon that we eat meat. Is is morally wrong that Inuit eat mostly meat? It is their main source of nutrition.
I know there are conflicting studies, but recent studies indicate that meat is what helped humans brain development during the evolutionary process, and many doctors and scientist, argue that while a vegeterian diet is fine for adults, meat is in fact, essential for childhood brain development. I'm not talking Big Mac here.
I'm From New Brunswick, which has the highest hunting population in North America and I hunt myself. Never intend to inflict suffering on an animal, but I am fully aware of the reality that we are omnivores and benefit from a diet which includes meat. WHile I agree that I consume more than I probably should, I judt can't accept that after thousands of years of eating meat, humans should stop.
I am an animal lover and have been praised and paid over the years for my wonderfully behaved dogs. I love dogs, but I can accept the fact that Koreans eat dogs especially when you consider how recently they were an impoverished country full of starving millions. I am sure you would not hesitate to kill and eat a dog if you were in the same situation yourself. You can't expect a society to change to your moral values in a few years.
As far as animal right go, I support the humane treatment and the humane slaughter of any animal slaughtered. I also sully support the seal hunt and am greatly disturbed by the ignorance that goes on in the save the seal campaign, but thatbis another issue and I am just coming off vacation and will most likely, not be posting on this site a whole lot aftere the next few days.
As for the argument of Hindus not eating meat, well, the higher castes are not allowed to eat garlic or onions and are permitted and encouraged to eat Cow Urine! While I am not sure if you find this morally wrong, I find it more disgusting than the idea of eating poor ol Rover. When I think of India, visions of healthy well nourished individuals does not come to mind. |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:11 am Post subject: |
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Who here "proudly supports" the meat industry Red Dog?
I think you need to get off your soapbox for a second and re-consider how you approach this issue.
You chose not to eat meat...that is your personal perogative and I respect that.
Now, some choose to eat meat...they do not by extension proudly support animal cruelty anymore than you support the exploitation of poor farmers in third world countries who export much of the veggies you consume.....
Or, if that is your contention then I suppose you proudly support exploitation of third world farmers and workers or even the exploitation of cheap labour that now works many of the farms in our home countries. |
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Tiberious aka Sparkles
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: I'm one cool cat!
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:23 am Post subject: |
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Here's what I don't get about vegetarians/vegans: plants are living things, too; they just don't make sounds when they're killed.
OMG, stop eating vegetables! Consume only dirt!
And vote for Lassie.
_*_ |
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flotsam
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| Homer wrote: |
Who here "proudly supports" the meat industry Red Dog?
I think you need to get off your soapbox for a second and re-consider how you approach this issue.
You chose not to eat meat...that is your personal perogative and I respect that.
Now, some choose to eat meat...they do not by extension proudly support animal cruelty anymore than you support the exploitation of poor farmers in third world countries who export much of the veggies you consume.....
Or, if that is your contention then I suppose you proudly support exploitation of third world farmers and workers or even the exploitation of cheap labour that now works many of the farms in our home countries. |
Extended question. But still true to form. |
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Neil
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:58 am Post subject: |
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The dog meat industry can surely be no crueler than back home where the method used by Jewish and Muslim Butchers to make kosher/halal meat is to hang an animal up, fully conscious and cut its throat, allowing the blood to drain. The Animal can take between 30 seconds and two minutes (in the case of Calves) to die.
I wonder if those who howl at a handful of adjoshis eating dog would argue against that or if more likely they would shy away from the issue for fear of offening religious sensibilities. |
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rumdiary
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| shifdog wrote: |
| red dog wrote: |
Laogaiguk wrote:
| Quote: |
| The point of the last few pages was how is eating dog meat (done humanely) any different from other meat (done humanely)? |
That's an oversimplification. Another very important question here is whether banning the industry would be a positive step for Korea, even if all the other immoral industries -- which also don't deserve to exist -- don't disappear right away. I have mixed feelings about it, but maybe the anti-dog meat campaign will encourage people to think about other animals too and eventually increase interest in vegetarianism.
You also write about a "humane" dog meat industry as if this is ever going to happen. If the industry grows, more dogs will be kept in closer confinement. Dogs go insane when they have to live in cages for months, and it costs money to send inspectors out to monitor how animals are killed -- do you really think the politicians are going to spend a lot of money on this? If they don't, who will? Private charities? I think it's naive to believe that any animal product can be produced "humanely" on a large scale -- encouraging the growth of an exceptionally cruel industry is only going to increase the cruelty, no matter what the politicians say. |
This will be done the same way cows, chickens, pigs, fish, and any other meat is raised, culled, and slaughtered. Just because it moves, makes noise, and is deemed intelligent doesn't mean it's wrong to eat. If we are all mammals, and mammals eat mammals, there is nothing wrong. Do you try to stop wolves from eating sheep? |
yes. When I see a wolf eating a sheep I rush in to interveen |
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rumdiary
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| red dog wrote: |
Laogaiguk wrote:
| Quote: |
I disagree. You ask for too much me thinks. Support the ones who treat them humanely and create laws against torture. This will close down most of the bad ones. Then work from there for yor goals atleast. Also, there will never be a market like you are talking about for dog, so while I see what you are saying, I don't think it works with dogs.
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How would you determine whether the dogs have been treated "humanely"? Most companion dogs don't get adequate care -- are butchers really going to give the dogs room to run, attention, companionship, proper vet care, etc., when it won't pay off at the market? Animals raised for "food" are treated abominably and "free-range" labels are usually misleading. You don't make a profit treating animals humanely.
And in this case, there's a market for tortured animals -- unless you actually videotape the slaughter, no one can prove it was "inhumane." So you'll end up with a law on paper that can't be enforced.
People make changes all kinds of different ways and if you find it easier to cut out meat bit by bit, go for it. I don't think it's the only possible way of doing it, but it is one way. |
I guess chickens in your homeland are treted humanely |
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pastis
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Homer wrote: |
| Who here "proudly supports" the meat industry Red Dog? |
Donkey Beer and riverboy if you read their posts. *Real* proud  .
| Homer wrote: |
| You chose not to eat meat...that is your personal perogative and I respect that. |
Eating meat is either moral (and worthy of respect) or it isn't. Period. (please read this next part carefully so as not to misunderstand) *I* say it's immoral, so *I* am unwilling to respect it -- you're welcome to disagree but you have to provide a better argument than "we have the right to do it just because we feel entitled to our different opinion". It's not about opinions or cultural relativity; if you want to make a case here you need to present a *sound* argument as to why animal cruelty (including unnecessary death) is morally acceptable. The other option is to just not give a sh*t and even condone torture (the more the better, cuz it's all about the taste ) like Donkey Brains and Riverboy, but I doubt you'd want to lower yourself to their level.
Basically, while I cannot respect meat-eating in affluent societies, I don't believe most people fully understand the horror that they are contributing to. To an extent I can excuse people's ignorance of how they contribute to cruel practices (I suppose we all do this in some way including myself, but it doesn't excuse it and we should always try to improve on, rather than accept it complacently), but it simply isn't possible, ever, to excuse animal cruelty *from a moral point of view* (because I believe cruelty is always wrong). If I'm wrong in this, then show me.
| Homer wrote: |
Now, some choose to eat meat...they do not by extension proudly support animal cruelty anymore than you support the exploitation of poor farmers in third world countries who export much of the veggies you consume.....
Or, if that is your contention then I suppose you proudly support exploitation of third world farmers and workers or even the exploitation of cheap labour that now works many of the farms in our home countries |
This point is not logical. Eating vegetables is morally acceptable, but exploiting farmers isn't. Two separate issues. Farmers don't have to be exploited for us to eat vegetables (hell you can grow your own, or buy locally - there's no shortage), but the meat industry is never moral. If you're very hungry, have nothing to eat and even kill the animal yourself, then that's different. If it ever comes down to the wire (survival of the fittest, life is cruel etc.), then I'd agree eating animals is something necessary to avoid one's own death, and any cruelty unavoidable. But people in affluent societies (that includes Korea) *obviously* can't say this about themselves. They eat meat because they *want* to, never cuz they *have* to, and that's a shameful thing. |
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pastis
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| If we are all mammals, and mammals eat mammals, there is nothing wrong. Do you try to stop wolves from eating sheep? |
Humans are different. We are capable of moral choices, unlike animals. Intelligent mammals may be capable of emotional response, but we can't hold them morally responsible for anything because they have no choice (wolves have to eat sheep, there is no other way). |
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