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bosintang
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: In the pot with the rest of the mutts
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 Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| flint wrote: |
Why should a person worry about someone who couldn't care what happened to them?
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On the other hand, why should you worry about someone who is not harming you in any way?
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Why should a person protect someone who is KNOWINGLY breaking the law? Whether it is a law people agree with or not? |
There's a difference between 'protecting' someone and not getting involved at all. Personally, I believe in karma of some sort, and 'mind your own business' comes to mind. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:47 am Post subject: |
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| bosintang wrote: |
| flint wrote: |
Why should a person worry about someone who couldn't care what happened to them?
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(1) On the other hand, why should you worry about someone who is not harming you in any way?
| Quote: |
Why should a person protect someone who is KNOWINGLY breaking the law? Whether it is a law people agree with or not? |
(2) There's a difference between 'protecting' someone and not getting involved at all. Personally, I believe in karma of some sort, and 'mind your own business' comes to mind. |
(numbers are mine)
1. Taking that logic one step further you could say that a pedophile who is abusing someone else's kids should be ignored because he is not harming you in any way. And no I am not equating this with being a illegal teacher.
2. So using the example I gave about you would "just mind your own business"?
Illegal teachers harm us all. That's why we had to go to Immigration and sign those forms. That's why hakwons can cheat us, because they can always get rid of us and hire an illegal to save money. That's why many of us are seen as playboys and not serious teachers.
How long until Immigration get really annoyed and puts more restrictions on us? What will it take for legal teachers here to stand up and say "enough is enough!" It's because of people like this guy, that the Korean Herald and company can print all sorts of garbage articles and people will believe it. |
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bosintang
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: In the pot with the rest of the mutts
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:55 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
1. Taking that logic one step further you could say that a pedophile who is abusing someone else's kids should be ignored because he is not harming you in any way. And no I am not equating this with being a illegal teacher.
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Let me rephrase that then: If noone is being harmed -- and that doesn't count *willing* paying customers -- then why should you get involved?
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2. So using the example I gave about you would "just mind your own business"?
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Actually, to be honest, in Asia I'd really have to consider whether I should and how I could get involved. But as you pointed out, comparing a pedophile to a teacher on a tourist visa is an absolute strawman, so this isn't the place to debate this.
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Illegal teachers harm us all. That's why we had to go to Immigration and sign those forms. That's why hakwons can cheat us, because they can always get rid of us and hire an illegal to save money.
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Alright, this illegal teacher is a pure-bred criminal and deserves to be expunged. All my problems are his fault. I'll follow this logic..so lets report this guy. He'll get fined and possibly deported, etc. The hagwon who employs him will get a small fine.
And then they'll shrug their shoulders, bitch to their customers about how the dishonest teachers are screwing them over, and get another newbie off the plane in the same situation. Wait a minute. Looks like nothing is changing.
Honestly, when a group of teachers with fake degrees or working illegally get caught, whose faces get splattered across the news? The teachers or the hagwon owners who employed them?
If your motive *really* was to 'protect' the legal and honest teachers by doing this, and improve their reputation -- and I find this argument highly dubious when it's more likely an exercise at carrying out a personal grudge -- at best you are accomplishing nothing. At worst, you are cutting off your nose to spite your face. |
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maddog
Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:45 am Post subject: |
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If you are working legally and you have a valid contract, why are you ALLOWING your boss to screw you over?
Go to the labor board and report him for screwing you over, provided you have proof.
AND, I wish people would get of their moral high-horses about working illegally. There are thousands of teachers here without visas, many of whom came on the promise that their visa would be sorted within a week of arrival. I KNOW. That very thing happened to me. My director stalled my visa run indefinatley!! I was forced to leave the country at the 11th hour. I had to pay my own airfare, I never got the money he'd been cheating me out of all along and I never got my last months salary. In all, it cost me about 3.5 million Won.
So, you're probably thinking you should report your boss to spare other people similar misery. WRONG! He'll bribe someone. It'll get swept under the carpet, and he'll do it all over again.
Your colleague will get FCKED! Big fat fine, kicked out the country and blacklisted.
You think your having a tough time. Just htink how tough it'll be for the other guy if you report your boss.
MD |
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Homer
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:47 am Post subject: |
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You bust the school with immigration and the new teacher gets nailed at the same time.
Your solution to the problem (you getting cheated) raises the point made earlier by another poster:
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If you are working legally and you have a valid contract, why are you ALLOWING your boss to screw you over?
Go to the labor board and report him for screwing you over, provided you have proof. |
Why did you wait until the end of your contract?
Why did you not adress the issues as they came up?
Why did you not go to the Labor Board with your concerns?
Why did you not quit and move on to another job?
These are just a few questions....
You wait a year, getting cheated left-right and center (according to you) and now at the end want to lash out at your boss by busting him along some poor sap who most likely does not know he is working illegally (yes some people are that naive and fail to check on even the most basic of labor rules before coming here!). If the new guy knows he is working illegaly well he chose to roll the dice but you still need to ask yourself how you got where you are and why you waited so long to act...
Think about that....you want to get back at your boss because he cheated you but you let him do this all year long without taking legal actions that were at your disposal or doing what is your right: quit and move on.
Last edited by Homer on Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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wylies99
Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: I'm one cool cat!
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:49 am Post subject: |
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[/quote]New guy knows he is working illegally[quote]
No sympathy from me. Anyone who goes to another country, and the first thing they do is break the law- no sympathy.
OP-If you want to get YOUR money- file against him/her at Labor. |
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chronicpride
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:31 am Post subject: |
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FWIW, I don't give 2 shits to give a lick of advice to this OP.
He sent his degree and transcripts to the school without first seeing a contract, or a signed one for that matter. Then, he got his E2 visa, still without signed contract. Then he stepped on a plane, without a signed contract. At what point do the alarms go off? He claims he's so confrontational and willing to take a stand, but willingly goes along with all of that without a signed contract?
Then he had problems with his director contributing to pension and insurance, and the board responded with advice on going to the labor board and resolving this properly and he responded with:
| braunshade wrote: |
| I am leaning towards blackmailing. It would be more fun. |
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?p=869489
Now he's about to screw another teacher over, purely out of spite for the hogwan he wants to screw.
Taking the legal route as we suggested could have had much more better chance at harming the school in such a way to bring about change or potentially put him out of business.
Instead, the OP takes the dumbass approach and deteriorates the industry down another notch for the rest of us. Not to mention put an even bigger chip on the shoulder of the director which will be taken out on anybody that he hires, E2 or otherwise.
Anyone who does BS like this or even applauds it on a forum, don't ever come on here whining about the problems with this industry, because you are part of the fucking problem. |
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alinkorea
Joined: 02 May 2005
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:23 am Post subject: |
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If you go to the Labor Board, the new guy will get shafted. Your boss will be fined. Your boss has swindled you out of money and you want to get even. Fair enough. But not when it effects the new teacher. Teaching for a few weeks before doing the visa run, is techically illegal, but loads of people do it. It's not nearly on the same level as someone with a fake degree.
If you did report your school and the new guy got in trouble, he'd have every justification for giving you a good beating |
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SeniorEnglish
Joined: 18 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| You should leave well enoguh alone man. If your boss screwed you out of money, there are better ways to get it. Like suing him or going to the Labor Board. Don't call immigration out of revenge. You know how Korea works, "Laws" No, they're more like guidelines. One of my old bosses had a good relationship with immigration, if you get my drift. I hear the mafia owns some hogwans, is that true? Snitches should be very cautious and never rat someone out. Who knows what the consequences will be??? |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:30 am Post subject: |
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Senior...did you read Chronics post above.....
In light of it the OP deserved all he got this year. There is a point where stupidity does not excuse bad experiences. |
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ChopChaeJoe
Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| braunshade wrote: |
Shouldnt the law superceed everything else?
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I pity anyone who really believes this. Do people really think the authorities care about them?
There is right and wrong, do the right thing. If you're doing something out of revenge, can it ever be the right thing?
Think. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Taking that logic one step further you could say that a pedophile who is abusing someone else's kids should be ignored because he is not harming you in any way. And no I am not equating this with being a illegal teacher. |
Actually, you are doing exactly that while claiming otherwise. What's the point of using an analogy unless you intend to show some similarity?
Here's an analogy just as valid, which is to say, not at all ...
South Korea bars sex expo lingerie models
I feel so sorry for those lingerie models who were kept out of the country just because they wanted to work for a while on a tourist visa. Brings tears to my eyes. And the entire nation of S Korea is so much worse off for not being able to benefit by the brillilance of their presence here (while making money).
| Quote: |
| Illegal teachers harm us all. That's why we had to go to Immigration and sign those forms. That's why hakwons can cheat us, because they can always get rid of us and hire an illegal to save money. That's why many of us are seen as playboys and not serious teachers. |
You might be right about this part.
There's a theory that illegal teachers serve to drive down the general wage level of the rest of us. Had one at my school for a few weeks a while ago, and he confided his status to me, also indicated he was getting a full salary for a 4-day workweek. Why? Well, because one day of the week he was already working at another school, also illegally.
And by the way, guess who had to teach his classes for him on 5th (paid) day of work? The rest of us who have our visas in order, of course. And ther Korean teachers who are paid far less than us foreign workers are - pretty good deal for the boss, eh?
'Tween you and me, I'd LOVE to work 4 days a week at full pay. And then make money at the other job on the day off while forcing others to do my work for me ... yeah, that would be sweet. Except for the small fact that I like to sleep easy at night and then look myself in the mirror while I shave in the morning.
In the case of this particular OP, it does seem like he is motivated by a desire for revenge. This is seldom logical. If there is some tangible benefit involved, I could see it, but just to cause pain to someone who has caused me pain? Why bother unless I come out better for it as well? |
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SeniorEnglish
Joined: 18 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
There's a theory that illegal teachers serve to drive down the general wage level. |
Using this logic, it would be fair to say people who teach privates illegally are driving down the wage also. I am allowed to teach privates legally, should I be upset with these teachers? Maybe, but I am not. I would never rat them out for my advantage. I am sure if people didn't do privates illegally, I would make at least 5,000 more per hour and that would be a very big chunk of change. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Taking that logic one step further you could say that a pedophile who is abusing someone else's kids should be ignored because he is not harming you in any way. And no I am not equating this with being a illegal teacher. |
(1) Actually, you are doing exactly that while claiming otherwise. What's the point of using an analogy unless you intend to show some similarity?
Here's an analogy just as valid, which is to say, not at all ...
South Korea bars sex expo lingerie models
I feel so sorry for those lingerie models who were kept out of the country just because they wanted to work for a while on a tourist visa. Brings tears to my eyes. And the entire nation of S Korea is so much worse off for not being able to benefit by the brillilance of their presence here (while making money).
| Quote: |
| Illegal teachers harm us all. That's why we had to go to Immigration and sign those forms. That's why hakwons can cheat us, because they can always get rid of us and hire an illegal to save money. That's why many of us are seen as playboys and not serious teachers. |
You might be right about this part.
There's a theory that illegal teachers serve to drive down the general wage level of the rest of us. Had one at my school for a few weeks a while ago, and he confided his status to me, also indicated he was getting a full salary for a 4-day workweek. Why? Well, because one day of the week he was already working at another school, also illegally.
And by the way, guess who had to teach his classes for him on 5th (paid) day of work? The rest of us who have our visas in order, of course. And ther Korean teachers who are paid far less than us foreign workers are - pretty good deal for the boss, eh?
'Tween you and me, I'd LOVE to work 4 days a week at full pay. And then make money at the other job on the day off while forcing others to do my work for me ... yeah, that would be sweet. Except for the small fact that I like to sleep easy at night and then look myself in the mirror while I shave in the morning.
(2) In the case of this particular OP, it does seem like he is motivated by a desire for revenge. This is seldom logical. If there is some tangible benefit involved, I could see it, but just to cause pain to someone who has caused me pain? Why bother unless I come out better for it as well? |
(numbers are mine)
1. I was using it to show the fallacy of the logic Mr. bosintang was employing. In other words simply because someone is not directly harming you does not ALWAYS mean you should not get involved.
2. I agree with this assessment. However I have no sympathy for the teacher in this case since he is well aware that he is working illegally. It's one thing not to be aware of the law (even though in most countries ignorance of the law is not considered to be a valid excuse for breaking it). It is quite another thing to go to a foreign country and deliberately and repeatedly flout the law. |
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wylies99
Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: I'm one cool cat!
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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Illegals drive down the wages for legals. Simple economics.
Guess they didn't teach economics during those 'educations" many received from Devry Institute, Cosmo Beauty School, or Chef Boyardee Cooking School. |
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