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Jeonnam Jinx
Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Location: Jeonnam
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 Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:39 am Post subject: Relative Clause - Grammar Question |
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OK, I admit it. My knowledge of grammar sucks, which is why it's a good thing I teach lower-level students conversation only. 
I would appreciate any assistance for the following:
A) Look at the mountain of which the top is covered with snow.
B) Look at the mountain the top of which is covered with snow.
I think B) is not as common as A), but both seem to be correct. In these examples, the phrases "of which" and "the top" seem to be interchangeable.
Could someone explain in lay terms how and why this is. I have to explain to my partner teacher (and understand it myself), so a simple explanation would be great!
Thanks for any and all help in advance.
JJ |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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ChopChaeJoe
Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| B needs a comma. A seems correct, but awkward. |
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:28 am Post subject: Re: Relative Clause - Grammar Question |
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| Jeonnam Jinx wrote: |
I would appreciate any assistance for the following:
A) Look at the mountain of which the top is covered with snow.
B) Look at the mountain the top of which is covered with snow.
I think B) is not as common as A), but both seem to be correct. In these examples, the phrases "of which" and "the top" seem to be interchangeable.
Could someone explain in lay terms how and why this is. I have to explain to my partner teacher (and understand it myself), so a simple explanation would be great! |
Both are grammatical.
My sense is (and I would want to check this by looking at some corpus data) that A feels more literary than B, and thus is more likely to be written than spoken. B is more likely in speech, I would guess. Both stand in comparisonn to another sentence: "Look at the top of the mountain, which is covered in snow." Notice how this sentence, which has the same propositional content as A and B, differs in how the information in it is structured.
There's more going on here about information structure, affecting why someone would produce one or the other, but it's late and I'm tired. I need to look at some references to get a better sense of what is going on, as well. Interesting question. |
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Jeonnam Jinx
Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Location: Jeonnam
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the responses. I had checked out that website and the wikipedia section before I posted, but it just confused me more than ever. Something about grammar: I either get it immediately (well, OK, within a relatively short period of time) or I have a mental block against *ever* understanding the concept(s).
Seems like whenever I feel I have a grasp of a concept, someone else (partner teacher, student) will ask a question way out of left field that I would never think of asking and that I have no idea how to answer properly.
Anyway, thanks again. It's FRIDAY! |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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Get yourself a "Grammar in Use" book or a Schramfer - Azar.
They have pretty good explanations of this stuff.
I always have to look it up when a student asks. I can't seem to remember.
Cheers |
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:50 pm Post subject: Re: Relative Clause - Grammar Question |
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| Jeonnam Jinx wrote: |
A) Look at the mountain of which the top is covered with snow.
B) Look at the mountain the top of which is covered with snow. |
Let us assume that both these sentences derive from a structure something like this:
(Look at the mountain (the top of the mountain is covered with snow))
In the dependent relative clause, the phrase 'the mountain' will be replaced by the relative pronoun 'which'. The noun that the relative pronoun refers to is 'the mountain' in the independent clause, 'Look at the mountain'.
The insertion of a relative pronoun takes place in both sentences. Sentence B reflects only this process of relativization.
What has happened in sentence A in addition is the movement of the prepositional phrase containing the relative pronoun to initial position in the clause.
Halliday has argued that positions before the main verb of a clause are important thematic positions in English sentences. In both of your sentences, both noun phrases - 'which' and 'the top' come before the main verb of the clause ('cover'). Both are thematically important.
Halliday has also argued for a particular importance for initial position in a clause when an element is moved to that position, as in sentence A. This kind of movement is called 'topicalization' and this is the grammatical difference between your two sentences.
What this would suggest is that the difference between the two sentences in meaning is that in sentence A the speaker is calling attention to the mountain as a whole, whereas in sentence B, the focus of attention is on the top of the mountain in particular.
The small grammatical change involved in topicalization helps the speaker more accurately reflect what exactly they want listeners to attend to.
This is not to say that other factors, such as literary versus conversational genres, may not be the basis for the difference as well.
I hope this helps. I've tried to be clear and use minimal jargon.
Last edited by Woland on Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:10 am; edited 2 times in total |
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oldfatfarang
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: On the road to somewhere.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| WOW Woland! How much do I have to pay you to sit my CELTA course for me? |
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| rainbowtrout wrote: |
| WOW Woland! How much do I have to pay you to sit my CELTA course for me? |
Sorry, rainbowtrout, I'm on an E1 and can't work outside my designated workplace without without permission. But thanks for the offer.  |
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Jeonnam Jinx
Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Location: Jeonnam
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:09 am Post subject: |
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Woland,
You rock! Yeah, that's a great way of explaining it.... topicalization or relativism. I realized the differences between the sentences (in the simplest grammatical ways) but couldn't explain adequately the why and wherefore. Now, I think I got it.
You definitely helped! Thanks a million and I hope good karma comes your way! |
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:07 am Post subject: |
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Just to be clear - both sentences involve relative pronouns (relativization), while only sentence A involves topicalization (within the relative clause). I've added a few notes to my post above to clarify this.
Glad to be of help. |
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ChopChaeJoe
Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:35 am Post subject: |
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| Who is Halliday? |
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Jeonnam Jinx
Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Location: Jeonnam
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:12 am Post subject: |
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Michael Alexander Kirkwood Halliday is a linguist who developed an internationally influential grammar model, the systemic functional grammar (which also goes by the name of systemic functional linguistics (SFL). In addition to English, the model has been applied to other languages, both Indo-European and non-Indo-European.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Halliday |
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