|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
noguri
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Location: korea
|
 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:04 pm Post subject: is Darfur "genocide" comparable to Palestine? |
 |
|
Recently there was a headline about a fresh onslaught in the Sudanese government's war against the people of Darfur. This is a tragic and horrific occasion.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2385650&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312
However, this fresh information allows us to see the emptiness of bigverne's claim [in another thread] that Darfur is "worse" than the Israeli invasion of Lebanon and Palestine.
| bigverne wrote: |
The conflict in Lebanon can in no way be described as genocide, and you would have to be very biased indeed to come to such a conclusion.
I never stated that it was Muslims killing non-Muslims. I knew well enough that it was a case of Arabs killing Black Muslims. I simply stated the fact that the atrocities committed in Darfur are far worse than those committed by Israel and wondered why so many 'anti-war' types are obssessed by the actions of Israel while ignoring other human rights abuses. |
First, the article explains that the Sudanese government is striking against the Darfurians because there are armed Darfurian insurgents fighting against the government. In Israeli and American jargon, these people would be called "terrorists" because they are armed.
So, if Israel and the U.S. have the right to kill civilians who happen to live where al Qaeda or Hezbollah are operating, doesn't the Sudanese government have the same right to kill civilians?
Secondly, the Darfur situation is similiar to the invasion of Lebanon in another way. In spite of the Western media portraying the Darfur conflict as a GENOCIDE of racial and ethnic motivations, there are no racial differences between the perpetrators and the victims. The fact is that the division between Darfurians and Sudanese was manufactured for political reasons, as recently as the 1960s. According to Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darfur
| Quote: |
| After independence, Darfur became a major power base for the Umma Party, led by Sadiq al-Mahdi. By the 1960s, some Darfuris were beginning to question the neglect of the region by the Umma , despite their consistent political support. During the discussions of the proposed Islamic constitution proposed by Hassan al-Turabi, Muslims from Darfur, the Nuba Mountains and the Red Sea Hills joined the Southerners in opposition, perceiving the constitution as a ploy by the center to consolidate their dominance of the marginalized regions. The fracturing of the Umma led to the first political demagoguery attempting to split the "Africans" from the "Arabs" in the 1968 elections, a difficult task as they were substantially intermarried and could not be distinguished by skin tone. |
Similarly, the conflict between Arabs and Jews in the middle east was manufactured for political reasons. Arabs and Jews lived harmoniously throughout the middle east prior to the founding of Israel in 1948. Until then, it was Christians who slaughtered Jews in the countless pogroms and systematic forms of persecution that took place in Europe for many centuries. So, the Arab/Jew ethnic division was created and encouraged for political purposes by the imperial powers that sponsored the formation of the State of Israel.
I am not saying there is no difference between Arabs and Jews, and certainly we know that Sudan is also a patchwork of tribes each with their own history. However, what is clear is that the Western news media has the power to designate some slaughters as "genocide," while other slaughters are justified as simply, "part of the fight against terrorism." |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 4:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Genocide -- an organized effort to kill literally every member of a certain group.
Just where is this Israeli effort to kill every Palestinian? How many Palestinians die at the hands of an Israeli in any given year? Not enough to met any meaningful definition of genocide. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 7:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Worst gawddammn post ever.
Israel is not in the process of raping and killing an entire people. 300,000 people have died in the REAL genocide in Sudan in the past 6 years.
The world has lost all perspective.
Oh, and the AP is now refering to Al Quada is "activists".
OP,
Hows the hakwon, cowboy? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 8:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| DON'T FEED THE TROLL!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 8:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Bah.
Last edited by thepeel on Sat Sep 02, 2006 8:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
noguri
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Location: korea
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 8:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| DON'T FEED THE TROLL!! |
Uh, sorry. I wasn't trying to be a troll. I simply wanted to present an alternative point of view and hear some opinions different from my own. I don't think that is trolling, is it?
Nobody offered a substantive reply, just angry responses. Hater Depot's cryptic comment could be interesting if he had added a bit more detail about his views on genocide.
If being different means I'm automatically a "troll," I guess I'll just have to learn to conform and think like everyone else, right? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 8:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BJWD wrote: |
| I'm not hungry. |
Not you. Actually I agree completely with your above post. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 8:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Sorry!
I guess all the world hasn't lost their mind. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 8:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| noguri wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| DON'T FEED THE TROLL!! |
Uh, sorry. I wasn't trying to be a troll. I simply wanted to present an alternative point of view and hear some opinions different from my own. I don't think that is trolling, is it?
Nobody offered a substantive reply, just angry responses. Hater Depot's cryptic comment could be interesting if he had added a bit more detail about his views on genocide.
If being different means I'm automatically a "troll," I guess I'll just have to learn to conform and think like everyone else, right? |
Israel goes out of their way to minimize civilian deaths to the point of airdropping warnings that a certain area is going to be bombed. Accusing them of attempted genocide is therefore not only silly but yes it's trolling.
Secondly Jews and Arabs did not live that "harmoniously" at all. Jews were discriminated against in numberous ways.
The fight against Arab terrorists can not be compared to the organized systemic wholesale slaughter that is going on in Darfur.
And the invasion of Lebanon was provoked by terrorists operating with impunity within Lebanon. If a government shelters terrorists it should expect reprisals when said terrorists commit atrocities.
Did you agree with the invasion of Afghanistan after 9/11 when the government refused to hand over AQ? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
noguri
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Location: korea
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks Urban Myth. This time your responses were both well-argued and thought-provoking. Your point of view is persuasive.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Israel goes out of their way to minimize civilian deaths to the point of airdropping warnings that a certain area is going to be bombed. Accusing them of attempted genocide is therefore not only silly but yes it's trolling.
|
No, I wasn't accusing Israel of genocide, but I did accuse them of waging a war that has resulted in staggering civilian deaths. The purpose of my comparison was to ask how Darfur is really different other than the media slant given to the events.
The point I made was that the slaughter of civilians in Darfur is a response to the armed Darfurian insurgencies which are "terrorist" from the viewpoint of the Sudanese government.
I have no inside information about Israeli military tactics that would enable me to say you are wrong about their more humane approach to warfare. Including, say, giving warnings to civilians before commencing an air attack. I have no reason to say that Israel has not pursued this humane strategy.
But the question remains, is there a humane way of waging war against civilians? What makes it more humane to attack a state that harbors terrorists?
So, when you ask if I believe the attack on Afghanistan was justified, do you mean in a biblical "eye for an eye" way? Or, do you ask if I think it was EFFECTIVE in destroying the al Qaeda network?
I think it was not effective in destroying al Qaeda. Rather, the coalition's invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan have transformed al Qaeda. Previously, it was an elite, oil-rich, Saudi-led organization. Now it has attracted poor people from the grassroots of muslim societies.
What you call "war against terrorism" is like cutting off a hydra's head with a sword. It sprouts more heads where there was one because these terror networks are decentralized. They are not centralized organizations with standing armies the way the USSR used to be or Cuba and North Korea continue to be. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 11:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| noguri wrote: |
Thanks Urban Myth. This time your responses were both well-argued and thought-provoking. Your point of view is persuasive.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Israel goes out of their way to minimize civilian deaths to the point of airdropping warnings that a certain area is going to be bombed. Accusing them of attempted genocide is therefore not only silly but yes it's trolling.
|
No, I wasn't accusing Israel of genocide, but I did accuse them of waging a war that has resulted in staggering civilian deaths. The purpose of my comparison was to ask how Darfur is really different other than the media slant given to the events.
(1) The point I made was that the slaughter of civilians in Darfur is a response to the armed Darfurian insurgencies which are "terrorist" from the viewpoint of the Sudanese government.
(2) I have no inside information about Israeli military tactics that would enable me to say you are wrong about their more humane approach to warfare. Including, say, giving warnings to civilians before commencing an air attack. I have no reason to say that Israel has not pursued this humane strategy.
(3) But the question remains, is there a humane way of waging war against civilians? What makes it more humane to attack a state that harbors terrorists?
(4) So, when you ask if I believe the attack on Afghanistan was justified, do you mean in a biblical "eye for an eye" way? Or, do you ask if I think it was EFFECTIVE in destroying the al Qaeda network?
(5) I think it was not effective in destroying al Qaeda. Rather, the coalition's invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan have transformed al Qaeda. Previously, it was an elite, oil-rich, Saudi-led organization. Now it has attracted poor people from the grassroots of muslim societies.
What you call "war against terrorism" is like cutting off a hydra's head with a sword. It sprouts more heads where there was one because these terror networks are decentralized. They are not centralized organizations with standing armies the way the USSR used to be or Cuba and North Korea continue to be. |
(numbers are mine)
1. The point that I was making was that unlike Israel, the Sudan government does not attempt to mimimize civilian deaths.
2. Inside information? I saw that on CNN. Hardly "inside" information.
3. If the civilain populace supports the terrorists I for one do not discriminate. In the West an accessory to murder in any way is also guilty.
4. I was asking was it justified not effective...that's for another thread
5. It was not effective in destroying AQ, but it was effective in depriving them of a state in which they could plan their attacks. There haven't been any more 9/11's so far, despite OBL's repeated threats. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 1:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
I don't think I sounded angry. I just did what you didnt do -- wrote a reasonale definition of genocide, then tested it against Israel's actions. Hmm, I concluded it's not a genocide.
People like calling it a genocide because it's supposed to make Jews seem like Nazis. Yawn. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
