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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
A muslim will not deny or give up Islam under pressure.
A christian will not accept Islam. "If you deny me before men, then I will deny you before angels" (paraphrased).
Its not right to force an individual to deny his beliefs at the point of a gun and you making light of it, doesn't in any way negate the seriousness of the issue.
We can't give up our beliefs under threat of death. I am sorry that you can't understand that. I am not sure how I would have responded, but I probably would have risked taking the bullet and you insult everyone who won't surrender. Its not right that you do that. |
Are you serious?? Oh, oh what I should say is, DON'T be so serious.
Yes we all know, "it's not right to force an individual to deny his beliefs..." at gunpoint, or by any other means of coercion.
But, come on...threre was a gun at his head! Personally I'd have switched teams in a heartbeat, but then again I don't have any strng convictions one way or the other - they're all the same to me. Even if I was a jesbus freak I would make the switch, but hey...I had my fingers crossed the whole time nyah, nyah.
It's not a big deal AT ALL, and realistically it's a small thing to endure considering the many other alternative endings this story could have had.
I'm pretty sure everybody involved in this incident understood that the conversion wasn't going to take - god (or allah) most of all. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:10 am Post subject: |
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But, come on...threre was a gun at his head! Personally I'd have switched teams in a heartbeat, but then again I don't have any strng convictions one way or the other - they're all the same to me. Even if I was a jesbus freak I would make the switch, but hey...I had my fingers crossed the whole time nyah, nyah.
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Thats you.
Obviously as has been proven in the last 20 years, some people hold stronger beliefs than you do. In many different areas of thought.
The idea of forced conversion is that you can't recant so long as they hold a position of power. Though what happens if they fall into hands again and they have recanted. Which is not allowed under Islam. Read the Koran, it is pretty clear how they view Islam. |
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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
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But, come on...threre was a gun at his head! Personally I'd have switched teams in a heartbeat, but then again I don't have any strng convictions one way or the other - they're all the same to me. Even if I was a jesbus freak I would make the switch, but hey...I had my fingers crossed the whole time nyah, nyah.
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Thats you.
Obviously as has been proven in the last 20 years, some people hold stronger beliefs than you do. In many different areas of thought.
The idea of forced conversion is that you can't recant so long as they hold a position of power. Though what happens if they fall into hands again and they have recanted. Which is not allowed under Islam. Read the Koran, it is pretty clear how they view Islam. |
So, would you have converted Summer?? |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:00 am Post subject: |
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| So, would you have converted Summer?? |
I can't say exactly until I was in the same position, but my initial feeling is
a definite and loud "NO". Though that is just me and I would not in any way look less upon someone who did as we all have to stand up for our own beliefs.
I have read the Koran and was in a position and still am where I could find it easy to join the Islamic faith if I decided too. Though my feeling is that Islam only offers me chains of gold and I won't be a slave to no man. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
| Though my feeling is that Islam only offers me chains of gold and I won't be a slave to no man. |
Don't get it. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:22 am Post subject: |
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If I was to practice Islam to its full limits.
I have to pray 5 times a day, eat halal meat, do ramadan once a year, etc.
In my current position I don't have to do any of that and we still both claim to believe in the same God.
I have the freedom to give up my beliefs, eat what I want, pray when I want, etc. while they do not seem to have the same freedoms as I do. So who is really free.
Plus, if some idiot claims God told him to blow up a building, then I have the right to disagree as it is enshrined in the bible. Muslims don't seem to have those rights (or at least not the right to vocally state it).
So I feel I am free, while if I adopt Islam, then I must also adopt certain chains (restrictions, rules) to go with it. It looks good at first view, but seems more related to chains of gold then to freedom. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| Plus, if some idiot claims God told him to blow up a building, then I have the right to disagree as it is enshrined in the bible. Muslims don't seem to have those rights (or at least not the right to vocally state it). |
So if Osama bin laden(let's say) cranks out a video in which he says that blowing up buildings is a good thing, all Muslims are required by the rules of their religion to agree with him? Is this from the Koran, the hadith, or what exactly? |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:19 am Post subject: |
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Good response from the above poster.
My point being look at percentages, muslims at least today feel (or so it seems) that they have less right to disagree with fundamentalists (or at least the percentages seem to show they do so less). That same claim can't be made to the country I come from or those who inhabit it and they are not predominantly muslim though they would not generally claim to believe what I believe either, but they do believe in freedoms of expression. |
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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
My point being look at percentages, muslims at least today feel (or so it seems) that they have less right to disagree with fundamentalists (or at least the percentages seem to show they do so less). That same claim can't be made to the country I come from or those who inhabit it and they are not predominantly muslim though they would not generally claim to believe what I believe either, but they do believe in freedoms of expression.
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First...what percentages??
Secondly, what are you talking about?
If I'm reading you correctly, you're saying ... the bible that gives you the right to disagree.... and (implicitly) that the koran denies muslims the right to disagree??
I think you're wrong on both counts. What are you basing this on? |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:30 am Post subject: |
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If I'm reading you correctly, you're saying ... the bible that gives you the right to disagree.... and (implicitly) that the koran denies muslims the right to disagree??
I think you're wrong on both counts. What are you basing this on? |
Facts on the ground |
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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| Care to elaborate? Because it's beginning to look as though your percentages, facts, and yes... even the ground are all coming out your donkey butt. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 10:10 am Post subject: |
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Are you really that interested in knowing the facts?
I can get them if pressed too, though I may need to use publications you will disagree with. Personal statements of individuals recorded by others that may or may not be accepted by you.
Therefore if your lifes work will not be changed for the better by my effort and I have a feeling from your previous writings that any effort on my part would be wasted, then I am not sure I want to put the effort in.
Though, I do believe from writings on this forum that any information that is not stamped on a persons forehead will not be readily accepted by its detractors.
I do apologise as to not answering your points but i am not willing to waste my life answering your argument that I picked my arguments out of a donkeys arse. I don't usually look there anyway and maybe I should as you seem to feel its a place to look. |
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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
Are you really that interested in knowing the facts?
I can get them if pressed too, though I may need to use publications you will disagree with. Personal statements of individuals recorded by others that may or may not be accepted by you.
Therefore if your lifes work will not be changed for the better by my effort and I have a feeling from your previous writings that any effort on my part would be wasted, then I am not sure I want to put the effort in.
Though, I do believe from writings on this forum that any information that is not stamped on a persons forehead will not be readily accepted by its detractors.
I do apologise as to not answering your points but i am not willing to waste my life answering your argument that I picked my arguments out of a donkeys arse. I don't usually look there anyway and maybe I should as you seem to feel its a place to look. |
Interesting words.
Summer, I'm willing to listen to someone else's ideas...I've changed my own thinking based on arguements and discussions I've taken part in, or 'listened' to on this board. Reading articles other people suggest, arguing your position, taking part in a dialog... all valid ways to get your point across. Unfortunately you're not doing any of these things.
It's also unfortunate that I don't have the patience and tact of someone like OTOH, but if you're going to make blunt, blanket statements, I don't think it's that unreasonable to ask for your reasoning. OK the donkey butt was a provocation, and uncalled for. I apologise. But I was trying to give you some reason to provide more than platitudes such as;
"look at the percentages..." (of what?)
"Facts on the ground." (what facts?)
"I wont be a slave for no man." (when talking about a religion.)
So, yes...
I do want to know the "facts", I am pressing you, and if I don't immediately fall in line and have my 'lifes work' changed then I hope you can consider it part of an ongoing dialog.
Cheers |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| So, they were forced to convert to Islam. Big deal. It's not as if they can't renounce it. Besides, the existance of God has yet to be proven. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine, Im sorry to say this, but youre an idiot. You would have pissed your pants and converted in a blink of an eye. Its all fine and good to say "Id take the bullet" sitting on your ass infront of a computer in Korea. |
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