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Interested
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
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 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 8:02 pm Post subject: Can You Really Not See? |
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For the many apologists of the illegal occupation of Palestine out there - here's some food for thought.
Written by Amira Hass (an Israeli journalist), and printed in the Ha'aretz:
Let us leave aside those Israelis whose ideology supports the dispossession of the Palestinian people because "God chose us." Leave aside the judges who whitewash every military policy of killing and destruction. Leave aside the military commanders who knowingly jail an entire nation in pens surrounded by walls, fortified observation towers, machine guns, barbed wire and blinding projectors. Leave aside the ministers. All of these are not counted among the collaborators. These are the architects, the planners, the designers, the executioners.
But there are others. Historians and mathematicians, senior editors, media stars, psychologists and family doctors, lawyers who do not support Gush Emunim and Kadima, teachers and educators, lovers of hiking trails and sing-alongs, high-tech wizards. Where are you? And what about you, researchers of Nazism, the Holocaust and Soviet gulags? Could you all be in favor of systematic discriminating laws? Laws stating that the Arabs of the Galilee will not even be compensated for the damages of the war by the same sums their Jewish neighbors are entitled to (Aryeh Dayan, Haaretz , August 21).
Could it be that you are all in favor of a racist Citizenship Law that forbids an Israeli Arab from living with his family in his own home? That you side with further expropriation of lands and the demolishing of additional orchards, for another settler neighborhood and another exclusively Jewish road? That you all back the shelling and missile fire killing the old and the young in the Gaza Strip?
Could it be that you all agree that a third of the West Bank (the Jordan Valley) should be off limits to Palestinians? That you all side with an Israeli policy that prevents tens of thousands of Palestinians who have obtained foreign citizenship from returning to their families in the occupied territories?
Could your mind really be so washed with the security excuse, used to forbid Gaza students from studying occupational therapy at Bethlehem and medicine at Abu Dis, and preventing sick people from Rafah from receiving medical treatment in Ramallah? Will also you find it easy to hide behind the explanation "we had no idea": we had no idea that the discrimination practiced in the distribution of water - which is solely controlled by Israel - leaves thousands of Palestinian households without water during the hot summer months; we had no idea that when the IDF blocks the entrance to villages, it also blocks their access to springs or water tanks.
But it cannot be that you don't see the iron gates along route 344 in the West Bank, blocking access to it from the Palestinian villages it passes by. It cannot be that you support preventing the access of thousands of farmers to their land and plantations, that you support the quarantine on Gaza which prevents the entry of medicine for hospitals, the disruption of electricity and water supply to 1.4 million human beings, closing their only outlet to the world for months.
Could it be that you do not know what is happening 15 minutes from your faculties and offices? Is it plausible that you support the system in which Hebrew soldiers, at checkpoints in the heart of the West Bank, are letting tens of thousands of people wait everyday for hours upon hours under the blazing sun, while selecting: residents of Nablus and Tul Karm are not allowed through, 35-year-olds and under - yallah, back to Jenin, residents of the Salem village are not even allowed to be here, a sick woman who skipped the line must learn a lesson and will be purposefully detained for hours. Machsom Watch's site is available for all; in it are countless such testimonies and worse, a day by day routine. But it cannot be that those who are appalled over every swastika painted on a Jewish grave in France and over every anti-Semitic headline in a Spanish local newspaper will not know how to reach this information, and will not be appalled and outraged.
As Jews we all enjoy the privilege Israel gives us, what makes us all collaborators. The question is what does every one of us do in an active and direct daily manner to minimize cooperation with a dispossessing, suppressing regime that never has its fill. Signing a petition and tutting will not do. Israel is a democracy for its Jews. We are not in danger of our lives, we will not be jailed in concentration camps, our livelihood will not be damaged and recreation in the countryside or abroad will not be denied to us. Therefore, the burden of collaboration and direct responsibility is immeasurably heavy. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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Fine fine.
The two religions draw a land in the sand and say "god gave me this" and then kill each other about it.
My two cents.
Israel exists. Done.
Suicide bombs target civilians exclusively. The Israeli military does try to avoid civ deaths. A moral difference exists.
To exist in a Muslim area is a slap in the face to the dominance of Islam. Muslims can exist around Jews, in the mind of most Jews but Jews cannot exist unless under Muslims, in the mind of most Muslims.
If the Arabs wanted peace they could have it.
If the Israelis can only have peace if they are all dead.
The above is all true, and objectively so. But the treatment of Arabs in the occupied areas is harsh, at best, but I don't know what else the Israelis can do.
So, OP, what is your solution? Get your armchair fired up! |
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Interested
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| Israel exists. Done. |
I think (if you ever met a sizeable number of Palestinians) you'll find that most Palestinians accept this reality. What they vehemently oppose is the Israeli occupation and expansionism. Presently, the Israelis are concocting a plan (naturally heralded in the US as brave concessions on the part of Israel) to ensnare for themselves a further 40 % of the West Bank, including the valuable Palestinian water resources.
| Quote: |
| Suicide bombs target civilians exclusively. The Israeli military does try to avoid civ deaths. A moral difference exists. |
What makes you so sure that the Israeli does try to avoid civillian deaths? From years of observation, I believe this statement to be patently false. Firing indescrimately into one of the most densly populated territories on the planet is not an example of minimising civillian casualties. Nor is bombing schools and hospitals. Nor was encircling the Sabra & Chatilla camp, inviting in 150 Phalangists (known for their barbaric war attrocities) and letting them murder and rape hack shoot and mutilate defenceless women children and elderly people, defended only by desperate and lightly armed teenaged boys (the PLO fighters had left after being promised by the US that civillians in the camp would not be harmed). The Israelis sealed the camp and refused to allow terrified women and children to flee. They had clear vantage points and the Israeli claims that they didn't know what was going on is patent nonsense as many witnesses, including foreign journalists were able to see what was happening - the IDF was observed observing. At night, the IDF light up the camp, so that the Phalangists were better able to carry out their work. For nearly 3 days, the IDF kept the camp sealed while this went on, giving indirect assistance to their proxies, until they were forced to call off the operation due to international opinion. When it was over hundreds lay dead, including small children in their nappies. If you've ever seen the photos, you'll know how sickening this was. They don't know how many died exactly, probably about 2000. In the 1982 Lebanon war, PLO would fire from wastelands, and IDF would deliberately bomb civilians who lived around the wastelands - their policy was to turn the population against the PLO. (This time round, that was their policy again - but it failed spectacularly in the latest war - and even the majority of Christian Lebanese now support Hisbollah). Often, the Israelis would tell Palestinian women and children that it was safe to return to their refugee camps. As they arrived, they would then fire missiles on them. All this is documented by Israeli sources. There are many many more examples of Israel deliberately targetting the 'cockroaches who walk on two legs' but I'd end up writing a 20 page essay about it.
| Quote: |
| To exist in a Muslim area is a slap in the face to the dominance of Islam. Muslims can exist around Jews, in the mind of most Jews but Jews cannot exist unless under Muslims, in the mind of most Muslims. |
Jews do not give equal rights to Israeli Arabs. I can go into this another time. Most Israelis I've spoken to do not want Arabs living in Israel.
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| If the Arabs wanted peace they could have it. |
many scholars have documented Israeli rejectionism. Arafat tried to negotiate peace in 1981, indeed that's why the Israelis went into Lebanon again. Because his new moderate and reasonable stance threatened their hold on the occupied territories, which they had no intention of giving up.
Israeli leaders have privately acknowledged that the worst thing the Palestinians could do is abandon terrorism. Then they would lose their pretext for not negotiating with them.
here is an article that might interest you:
http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/?articleid=4463
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| Together with Arafat, Israel buried its best excuse for perpetuating the occupation. How long can you blame the dead for terrorism? How long can you refuse to negotiate with the dead, to meet with him face to face? Not very long. More than two months after Arafat's death, even anemic Europe understands: "the 'Arafat excuse' no longer exists" (Jean Asselborn, president of the European Union Council of Ministers, Ha'aretz, Jan. 18, 2005). And what is worse: the Palestinians have now got a new leader who was elected democratically (goodbye to "ruthless dictator"), and, on top of all that, a leader who consistently and openly � in English and in Arabic � renounces the armed struggle against the occupation. On the other hand, Abu Mazen still demands complete Israeli withdrawal from all Palestinian lands, and an independent Palestinian state. This, of course, is in total harmony with international law, with UN Security Council resolutions, even with President's Bush Road Map: in short, it is totally unacceptable for Israel. |
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What we cannot live with is a moderate, sane Palestinian leader who wants peace in return for his people's lands, rights, and freedom. A leader who speaks good English and does not dress like bin Laden, who does not want to throw us to the sea but insists that Jerusalem is also a Palestinian city. Such a leader exposes Israel's rejectionism, and there lies the great danger of Abu Mazen. We cannot convince the world that we are the eternal peace-loving victims when a majority (54 percent) of Palestinians living in the occupied territories, as polls show, support a two-state solution on the basis of the 1967 lines, with border corrections and no massive return of refugees (Ha'aretz, Jan. 18, 2005). Because if this is the case, it becomes obvious that the only obstacle to peace is Israel's rejectionism, its refusal to make peace along these internationally accepted lines.
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I'm not going to go point-for-point with you.
What is your solution? Camon! |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| Interested wrote: |
| BJWD wrote: |
| Israel exists. Done. |
I think (if you ever met a sizeable number of Palestinians) you'll find that most Palestinians accept this reality. What they vehemently oppose is the Israeli occupation and expansionism. Presently, the Israelis are concocting a plan (naturally heralded in the US as brave concessions on the part of Israel) to ensnare for themselves a further 40 % of the West Bank, including the valuable Palestinian water resources.
| Quote: |
| Suicide bombs target civilians exclusively. The Israeli military does try to avoid civ deaths. A moral difference exists. |
What makes you so sure that the Israeli does try to avoid civillian deaths? (1) From years of observation, I believe this statement to be patently false. Firing indescrimately into one of the most densly populated territories on the planet is not an example of minimising civillian casualties. Nor is bombing schools and hospitals. Nor was encircling the Sabra & Chatilla camp, inviting in 150 Phalangists (known for their barbaric war attrocities) and letting them murder and rape hack shoot and mutilate defenceless women children and elderly people, defended only by desperate and lightly armed teenaged boys (the PLO fighters had left after being promised by the US that civillians in the camp would not be harmed). The Israelis sealed the camp and refused to allow terrified women and children to flee. They had clear vantage points and the Israeli claims that they didn't know what was going on is patent nonsense as many witnesses, including foreign journalists were able to see what was happening - the IDF was observed observing. At night, the IDF light up the camp, so that the Phalangists were better able to carry out their work. For nearly 3 days, the IDF kept the camp sealed while this went on, giving indirect assistance to their proxies, until they were forced to call off the operation due to international opinion. When it was over hundreds lay dead, including small children in their nappies. If you've ever seen the photos, you'll know how sickening this was. They don't know how many died exactly, probably about 2000. In the 1982 Lebanon war, PLO would fire from wastelands, and IDF would deliberately bomb civilians who lived around the wastelands - their policy was to turn the population against the PLO. (This time round, that was their policy again - but it failed spectacularly in the latest war - and even the majority of Christian Lebanese now support Hisbollah). Often, the Israelis would tell Palestinian women and children that it was safe to return to their refugee camps. As they arrived, they would then fire missiles on them. All this is documented by Israeli sources. There are many many more examples of Israel deliberately targetting the '*beep* who walk on two legs' but I'd end up writing a 20 page essay about it.
| Quote: |
| To exist in a Muslim area is a slap in the face to the dominance of Islam. Muslims can exist around Jews, in the mind of most Jews but Jews cannot exist unless under Muslims, in the mind of most Muslims. |
Jews do not give equal rights to Israeli Arabs. I can go into this another time. Most Israelis I've spoken to do not want Arabs living in Israel.
| Quote: |
| If the Arabs wanted peace they could have it. |
many scholars have documented Israeli rejectionism. Arafat tried to negotiate peace in 1981, indeed that's why the Israelis went into Lebanon again. Because his new moderate and reasonable stance threatened their hold on the occupied territories, which they had no intention of giving up.
Israeli leaders have privately acknowledged that the worst thing the Palestinians could do is abandon terrorism. Then they would lose their pretext for not negotiating with them.
(2) here is an article that might interest you:
http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/?articleid=4463
| Quote: |
| Together with Arafat, Israel buried its best excuse for perpetuating the occupation. How long can you blame the dead for terrorism? How long can you refuse to negotiate with the dead, to meet with him face to face? Not very long. More than two months after Arafat's death, even anemic Europe understands: "the 'Arafat excuse' no longer exists" (Jean Asselborn, president of the European Union Council of Ministers, Ha'aretz, Jan. 18, 2005). And what is worse: the Palestinians have now got a new leader who was elected democratically (goodbye to "ruthless dictator"), and, on top of all that, a leader who consistently and openly � in English and in Arabic � renounces the armed struggle against the occupation. On the other hand, Abu Mazen still demands complete Israeli withdrawal from all Palestinian lands, and an independent Palestinian state. This, of course, is in total harmony with international law, with UN Security Council resolutions, even with President's Bush Road Map: in short, it is totally unacceptable for Israel. |
| Quote: |
What we cannot live with is a moderate, sane Palestinian leader who wants peace in return for his people's lands, rights, and freedom. A leader who speaks good English and does not dress like bin Laden, who does not want to throw us to the sea but insists that Jerusalem is also a Palestinian city. Such a leader exposes Israel's rejectionism, and there lies the great danger of Abu Mazen. We cannot convince the world that we are the eternal peace-loving victims when a majority (54 percent) of Palestinians living in the occupied territories, as polls show, support a two-state solution on the basis of the 1967 lines, with border corrections and no massive return of refugees (Ha'aretz, Jan. 18, 2005). Because if this is the case, it becomes obvious that the only obstacle to peace is Israel's rejectionism, its refusal to make peace along these internationally accepted lines.
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(numbers are mine)
1. Years of observation? So the IDF has let you observe their tactics for years? During the campaign in Lebanon the IDF dropped hundreds of leaflets on the places they were going to bomb, warning the civilians. That shoots your theory down.
2. That article no longer applies. The Palestinians have a new leader now, one which has openly called for the destruction of Israel and refuses to withdraw that statement from its founding charter. |
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deadman
Joined: 27 May 2006
Location: Suwon
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 2:16 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
Yeah, I'm not going to go point-for-point with you.
What is your solution? Camon! |
Ex PM of Malaysia suggests this solution, in an interview at
http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD126706 :
Yvonne Ridley: "What do you see as the final solution in Palestine?"
Mahathir Mohammad: "Well, I think, in the first place, if Israel wants to be recognized as a state, it should withdraw back to its borders. It should allow the Palestinians who were expelled to come back and to own their houses and their farms again. And then we will see a process of democracy working in Israel. And if it so happens that the Arabs win in any democratic elections - they must be allowed to rule Israel. We could call it Israel, but it may not be just the land of the Jews, because this is racism taken to the extreme - when you only allow one race to rule the country."
What do you think of that idea? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:14 am Post subject: |
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'The Jews control the world' Mahatir? Re-integrating Palestinians into Israel after all this has happened is not a feasible solution.
Ending the occupation in Gaza resulted in chaos, and Sharon was savvy enough to realize that the violence there would at least shed some light onto (if not entirely justify) the reason why the occupation of the West Bank continues.
I do think Israel needs to demolish all its settlements in the West Bank, unless someone can come up with a public necessity why each settlement, on a settlement-by-settlement basis, should be preserved. |
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deadman
Joined: 27 May 2006
Location: Suwon
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
Re-integrating Palestinians into Israel after all this has happened is not a feasible solution.
Ending the occupation in Gaza resulted in chaos, and Sharon was savvy enough to realize that the violence there would at least shed some light onto (if not entirely justify) the reason why the occupation of the West Bank continues. |
Can you go into why it is not feasible a bit more? Are you saying it's not feasible because it would be chaotic?
What I'm interested in is what are the specific justifications for keeping Israel Jewish. Why not accomodate the original inhabitants and their descendants and and Jews who want to live there?
Is it the old "they might treat us worse than we treat them"? |
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dbee
Joined: 29 Dec 2004
Location: korea
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:18 am Post subject: |
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I don't see how everyone can roundly castigate oppressive, one-sided regimes like the apartheit one in SA and yet on the other hand, support one that is many, many times as brutal in Israel.
The Israelis have committed almost every crime at this stage, that the Nazi's have committed. And I'm sure that given time and the constant assurance that the rest of the world will look the other way, they'll get around to making it a complete set...
A one-race nation, that rules another race by the gun, refuses to be controlled democratically, set it's own belief system to be the highest law, stockpiles an illegal nuclear arsenal and considers itself to be God's people and is ruled over by zealous war criminals and hawks. Is not something I could see myself supporting from a moral standpoint.
Although, I do acknowledge Israels right to exist. Just not it's right to go on existing in the form in which it's taken. |
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ariellowen
Joined: 19 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:51 am Post subject: |
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One of the main things is land value. Right on the Mediterranean, conveniently located just a short hop to the beautiful Aegean Islands, mild climate, good agricultural land when irrigated, historical sights galore-- at 20,330 square kilometers--
Jerusalem Real Estate http://www.israelhomes.net/index-4.php
Old City
Old City $2,500,000 USD
MLS � Res. 150
sq. m.
What is the value of land in East Jerusalem alone?
Forget the Religious and cultural matters. Something Israel did "right" from the start was to make their perpetual war economical (something the Americans have failed terribly at). Consider the Israeli's main battle tanks, the Merkava 3 Baz and Merkava Mk. 4: sturdy, economical, simple replaceable parts and construction....
With 8.7 percent of GDP devoted to their military, the Israelis are well prepared to fight on for another fifty years-- who ever said the Islamists were persistent....
With a GDP of one-hundred-thirty billion and growth at four percent, obviously the Israelis are not going to sell out to the Palestinians who have an average annual income of just over $ 1000 per person.
Historico-moralist interpretations by in large miss the economics of the issue. How many Russian and Ukrainian billionaires are patronizing Palestine? With the backing of 13.3 million largely affluent Jews world wide, two or more hundred million "comfortable" Christian Zionists and the most of the governments of the developed world--
The only real historical or cultural matter at issue, is the third largest sector of Israel's economy, worth over two-billion dollars a year: Tourism.
(On a larger scale: Israel, along with Yugoslavia, Lebanon, Iraq, Afganistan, Uganda, Sudan and Somalia is part of a Western thrust into Central Asia, for the valuable land and trillions in trade there. The objective: Robbie Williams down-loading on I-Pods in Islamabad.)
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Boodleheimer
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Location: working undercover for the Man
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| i think we should make the whole area off-limits to everyone. except maybe buddhists. they seem most deserving -- they're so peaceful! |
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sundubuman
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| dbee wrote: |
I don't see how everyone can roundly castigate oppressive, one-sided regimes like the apartheit one in SA and yet on the other hand, support one that is many, many times as brutal in Israel.
The Israelis have committed almost every crime at this stage, that the Nazi's have committed. And I'm sure that given time and the constant assurance that the rest of the world will look the other way, they'll get around to making it a complete set...
A one-race nation, that rules another race by the gun, refuses to be controlled democratically, set it's own belief system to be the highest law, stockpiles an illegal nuclear arsenal and considers itself to be God's people and is ruled over by zealous war criminals and hawks. Is not something I could see myself supporting from a moral standpoint.
Although, I do acknowledge Israels right to exist. Just not it's right to go on existing in the form in which it's taken. |
Israel doesn't care what you think. And world-to-idiot, Israelis are every race under the sun.
What is this idiotic obsession with seeing things through a racial prism? You need to visit Israel and talk with an Arab Jew, or an Indian Jew, a blond Russian Jew, or a Burmese Asian Jew (bnei menashe) or an African Ethiopian Jew. That might cure you of your ignorance.
And your (in)comprehesion of the concept of the Chosen People is kindergartenish at best.
www.theaugeanstables.com |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| dbee wrote: |
I don't see how everyone can roundly castigate oppressive, one-sided regimes like the apartheit one in SA and (1) yet on the other hand, support one that is many, many times as brutal in Israel.
(2) The Israelis have committed almost every crime at this stage, that the Nazi's have committed. And I'm sure that given time and the constant assurance that the rest of the world will look the other way, they'll get around to making it a complete set...
A one-race nation, that rules another race by the gun, refuses to be controlled democratically, set it's own belief system to be the highest law, (3) stockpiles an illegal nuclear arsenal and considers itself to be God's people and is ruled over by zealous war criminals and hawks. Is not something I could see myself supporting from a moral standpoint.
Although, I do acknowledge Israels right to exist. Just not it's right to go on existing in the form in which it's taken. |
numbers are mine)
1. "many times as brutal as in Israel..?" You must be talking about Iraq pre-invasion or North Korea then?
2. Utter nonsense...anti-semetic nonsense at that.
3. Illegal nuclear stockpile? Could you point us to the law which says that Israel's stockpile is illegal? Or tell us the international court which has made this ruling?
Or do you have any clue what you are talking about? No? Thought so. |
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Boodleheimer
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Location: working undercover for the Man
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| deadman wrote: |
What I'm interested in is what are the specific justifications for keeping Israel Jewish. Why not accomodate the original inhabitants and their descendants and and Jews who want to live there?
Is it the old "they might treat us worse than we treat them"? |
i think deadman brings up an interesting question. what are the exact stats -- what percent of residents are Jewish, what percent Palestinian? can israel remain a democracy and remain Jewish or must it choose? |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| To answer the question: nope, i really can't see. Thanks for asking though. |
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