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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| ...how was my article anti-American? |
Fasicnating how you stubbornly refuse to follow the advice Aristotle in your signature line provides you, each and every time you speak here...
In any case, already answered (see above). And I do not believe that I said that your article was anti-American.
I would much rather present my views on the article that Mithridates posted months ago, the one that treated oil extraction and development in Alberta, I believe -- that is, if anyone is willing to find and link it. And I would be very interested in On the Other Hand and Bucheon's response to my views on this. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| laogaiguk wrote: |
| ...how was my article anti-American? |
Fasicnating how you stubbornly refuse to follow the advice Aristotle in your signature line provides you, each and every time you speak here...
In any case, already answered (see above). And I do not believe that I said that your article was anti-American.
I would much rather present my views on the article that Mithridates posted months ago, the one that treated oil extraction and development in Alberta, I believe -- that is, if anyone is willing to find and link it. And I would be very interested in On the Other Hand and Bucheon's response to my views on this. |
| Quote: |
It seems to me, then, that he is presenting this here for other purposes, just as my friend Laogaiguk was not sincerely asking for insight from "this moron-infested forum" when he posted this piece of negative news on the United States...
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=65054
And, by the way, the "no-brainer" that I see is the least common denominator when these two stories are compared -- or several if not most of the stories I have seen Mithridates post on the United States, for that matter (which are, admitedly, not many, but always showing the U.S. in a negative light nonetheless). That is, data selection is everything -- especially when it is always the same kind of data... |
Then in the next paragraph, you most definitely were saying Mith is anti-American. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| It is revealing when you call others "moron" but then show a complete inability to distinguish between substance and data selection. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| It is revealing when you call others "moron" but then show a complete inability to distinguish between substance and data selection. |
Keep up the deflecting. It serves you so well. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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I am beginning to think that you might just be BLT Lawyer's sock (or vice versa). The eighteen sarcastic icons seem to be a dead giveaway...
In any case, I think the fact that you felt it necessary to seek out and then post yet another story that cast the United States in a negative light (not to mention beginning the thread in such a cantankerous spirit) casts much doubt on your claim to have innocently found a "horrid story" that "just happened to be in America."
I think you just had to post that story, which, and again, in and of itself, is hardly an antiAmerican act (let me be totally clear: it is not an antiAmerican act). But as you are apparently very fond of such stories, you do not seek out or post such stories as they occur in other nation-states, and, like Octavius or R.S. Refugee, you appear to take at least some delight in posting them, well, that is the problem I have with the pattern that you present.
So there it is. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:40 am Post subject: |
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Back to the thread: On the Other Hand,
Your comment about the Canadian Senate is enlightening. Indeed, I have learned much about Canadian politics from you and a small handful of others, including esp. Bulsajo, who, unfortunately, have only spoken on Canadian affairs in passing while commenting at length on other threads that somehow or another were treating the U.S. and its problems.
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Actually, my reason for posting more on American than Canadian affairs has nothing whatsoever to do with reluctance to say bad things about Canada. You can say the worst about that place, and I'll agree with it. If I had to outline my reasons for not discussing Canadian politics that much on Dave's...
1. I'm personally not all that interested in Canadian politics anymore, seeing as how I don't live there and have no intention of doing so in the near future. I keep up on the major players and the broad issues, but that's about it.
2. I doubt there's much of an audience for Canadian politics on Dave's.
And I don't think it's neccessarily a sign of anti-Americanism that people talk more about the politics of the USA than the politics of their homelands. Not trying to promote the "US-centric worldview" here, but it's a fact that America is the country with the most influence outside of its borders. I mean, do you see Stephen Harper sitting down with the Israelis and the Palestinians to conduct peace talks?
Of course, there are instances when focussing on US problems really is an indication of anti-Americanism. The giveaway is when the poster discusses some problem occuring in the US, while making it sound as if the problem does not exist in his own country. But that doesn't seem to have been what Mith was doing, because gerrymandering does seem to be more of an issue in the states than in Canada, due to the way in which districts are drawn. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:51 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
Gopher:
I think you've really picked the wrong target here if you think Mithridates is pushing some sort of anti-American agenda.
And why is it so difficult to accpet the possibility that gerrmymandering might be more of a problem in the USA than in other countries? All poltical systems have their strnegths and weaknesses. If I say "Canada, with its appointed senate, has more of a problem with unelected politicians killing legislation than do most countries", would that be anti-Canadianism, or just a statement of fact?
(Any Canadians who doubt that Canada has the problem described above can do a google on the history of Canada's abortion laws.) |
Yes, and also the opposite with weird provisions in the constitution:
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| A bitter Senate battle ensued, and many polls showed that as many as 80% of Canadians were opposed to the tax. Mulroney would have to use a little known Constitutional provision, allowing him in an emergency situation to ask the Queen to appoint 8 new Senators. Although the government argued that the tax was not a tax increase, but a tax shift, the highly visible nature of the tax was extremely unpopular, and many resented Mulroney's use of an "emergency" clause in the constitution. |
Actually you reminded me of grade 5 or 6 - back then a friend and I decided we would publish a newspaper called Mulroney's Downfall because nobody liked him and neither did I. It was on a dot matrix printer made with an APPLE computer and I think we made two issues. I remember something vague about the senate and Mulroney that my friend wrote but I only wrote about how bad having the GST was. I used to buy 20 sour soothers for a dollar and suddenly I could only get 18 with a bunch of pennies along with it, so I decided I didn't like him.
And for the record (not replying to OTOH anymore), I knew about gerrymandering, just not the word. I thought it was 'redrawing federal districts' or 'electoral district redrawing' or something like that. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
I am beginning to think that you might just be BLT Lawyer's sock (or vice versa). The eighteen sarcastic icons seem to be a dead giveaway...
In any case, I think the fact that you felt it necessary to seek out and then post yet another story that cast the United States in a negative light (not to mention beginning the thread in such a cantankerous spirit) casts much doubt on your claim to have innocently found a "horrid story" that "just happened to be in America."
I think you just had to post that story, which, and again, in and of itself, is hardly an antiAmerican act (let me be totally clear: it is not an antiAmerican act). But as you are apparently very fond of such stories, you do not seek out or post such stories as they occur in other nation-states, and, like Octavius or R.S. Refugee, you appear to take at least some delight in posting them, well, that is the problem I have with the pattern that you present.
So there it is. |
Look, whatever our history, this isn't productive. First, I apologize for the moron insult. Second, I can honestly see where you are coming from having spent days in the boshintang thread. The constant lack of logic, emotional insults, arguemtns that make no sense, etc. start to get to you and you start to see attacks everywhere. I am sure you get a lot of anti-American attacks and after awhile it just gets to you. I have tons of faults, hopefully one I am fixing up right now.
But, having said that, you are on an anti-american witchhunt. Now I said how this is understandable, but over 4 people have said you attacked (intellectually, but still and attack) Mith incorrectly. Mith is allowed his opinion. He is honestly suprised (and possible disgusted) that is allowed to happen in a free country. And even if he can't post something that can help, it doesn't mean he can't cricize about a VALID problem. I am sure there are many people in America who don't know this fact, and maybe do now. It's like our Senate. Many Canadians think we elect our Senate. I then asked them who they voted for and then comes the blank looks.  I am disgusted we have a boys club where people can waste my tax dollars with no retirement age (I think around 75) because they were pals with the Prime Minister. The Senate is a joke, and should be changed. If you had started a thread with that, and said it was disgusting, I would have agreed (dont say I wouldn't cause I have put Canada down just as often as America, both when they deserved it).
Criticism is good, and you can take this post however you like. Keep the grudge or start over. Again, I have tons of my own faults, but you do see anti-Americanism everywhere.
Either way, I like America and Americans. I defend them and it more often than not, but if it does something stupid, I have every right to say my opinion, which is what America is. Still, there are lots of anti-American morons, but your approach is wrong. Ignore them instead of just attacking anyone who criticized America.
I also have no pattern on posting the stories like you said. Maybe you are just angry and going from emotion. But look at my post history, seriously, and I would love for you to count the bad-American ones, taking out the forementioned one and others like it that just happen to be in America. I have posted enough stupid ones about Canada too, as you would see if you would venture into other forums. Honestly. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 6:38 am Post subject: |
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Welcome to my world, gents. Yes, it is BLTlawyer ( I LOVE BLT's and would make a damned fine lawyer, I think... if I were even slightly itnerested... ) in the flesh. And it is delightful to watch this thread.
Perhaps the ivory tower will melt a little and a little self-awarness will come to gopher.
Nah....
A sock? How... trite and predictable. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 10:56 am Post subject: |
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OK, On the Other Hand and Laogaiguk: thanks for the response and thanks for taking the time to address all points.
I need to respond, however, to the absurdity of the charge, made by a poster who has used exclamation points and multiple emoticons to punctuate his insults and apparently extreme sarcasm on this very thread.
Also, and unfortunately, tone of voice does not come through on such a forum as this. This notwithstanding, I can assure you, Laogaiguk, that mine is usually even and dispassionate. Our exchanges might go differently, then, if we could hear each other.
In any case, in a way, you and On the Other Hand have helped articulate my views on the issue of pervasive antiAmericanist bias on this board. As you said earlier, for example, most news information tends to deal with negativity; and as On the Other Hand clarified (which I think is pretty much valid across the board for Canadians, at least, and I hope I am not mischaracterizing), news information on Canadian affairs tends to evoke little more than apathy in Canadians. And America, as the global hegemon, remains in the forefront of all news.
What remains, then, is essentially negative news about the United States.
But there is more to it than this.
Mithridates posted a story a few months back on potential oil exploitation in Alberta (which, since I do not have time to dig, I will have to simplify, and I ask for indulgence if some of my facts are wrong because I am going from memory).
If I recall correctly, some Albertan industrialists wanted to invest in and create new markets for an as yet untapped resource in their state. But other Canadians, namely, those with environmentalist sympathies, tended to oppose this. To counter this opposition, and to show Canadians what the potential market might represent for their economy, these industrialists commissioned a study based on surveying/polling, that found that many Americans would support higher gas prices if, in exchange, they could get oil from a stable supplier. Moreover, this study found, most Americans were not even aware that Canada was an oil exporter already. All of this implying that Canadian oil exporting firms could do much to enhance this market, at home and in the U.S., through better PR.
This kind of story, I suggest but, of course, do not know, was unaccaptable to the editor who supervised the journalist who wrote it. Such a story on Canadian affairs could only fail to get anyone's attention in a country whose media has long since learned that Canadians tend to respond favorably and enthusiastically to a range of, for example, antiAmerican/smug Canadian superiority, Molson-style, marketing campaigns and information.
The story that Mithridates found, accepted the headline at face value, and then repeated here without even thinking these things through, singled out and enhanced the above-mentioned study's findings that "Americans were ignorant of Canada's importance to them," or something very like this. That was the story's "spin."
This story, which was now a thread on this forum, provoked many sarcastic antiAmerican/Canadian superiority comments like "now they will invade us to promote democracy," or "we've always known that Americans are stupid."
But, we all know, that was not what that story was about. That story treated Canadian affairs -- and, I might add, was interesting on its own merits. In any case, the United States and Americans were merely incidental to the central story and the problem it addressed.
The story became what it did, then, first in the Canadian newspaper, and then here on this board, because of many people's ingrained antiAmerican/smug Canadian superiority views -- which are supported by ingrained Canadian apathy on Canadian affairs and, again, as you, Laogaiguk, said, a strong tendency for news agencies to find and report mostly negative information.
I have never meant to place this kind of antiAmericanism in the same league with those Iranians who stormed and seized our embassy in 1979. But if you cannot see the issues and faults I refer to here, in your thinking on world affairs, then I think you are the one who is rigidly and emotionally refusing to see things in a new light and not me...
So, in conclusion, you and many others here, claim to honestly have an interest in addressing faults and problems and making constructive criticisms. Are you capable of applying that to the problems I have discussed here? Are you capable of even recognizing or at least acknowledging the problems I have discussed here? |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
OK, On the Other Hand and Laogaiguk: thanks for the response and thanks for taking the time to address all points.
I need to respond, however, to the absurdity of the charge, made by a poster who has used exclamation points and multiple emoticons to punctuate his insults and apparently extreme sarcasm on this very thread.
Also, and unfortunately, tone of voice does not come through on such a forum as this. This notwithstanding, I can assure you, Laogaiguk, that mine is usually even and dispassionate. Our exchanges might go differently, then, if we could hear each other.
In any case, in a way, you and On the Other Hand have helped articulate my views on the issue of pervasive antiAmericanist bias on this board. As you said earlier, for example, most news information tends to deal with negativity; and as On the Other Hand clarified (which I think is pretty much valid across the board for Canadians, at least, and I hope I am not mischaracterizing), news information on Canadian affairs tends to evoke little more than apathy in Canadians. And America, as the global hegemon, remains in the forefront of all news.
What remains, then, is essentially negative news about the United States.
But there is more to it than this.
Mithridates posted a story a few months back on potential oil exploitation in Alberta (which, since I do not have time to dig, I will have to simplify, and I ask for indulgence if some of my facts are wrong because I am going from memory).
If I recall correctly, some Albertan industrialists wanted to invest in and create new markets for an as yet untapped resource in their state. But other Canadians, namely, those with environmentalist sympathies, tended to oppose this. To counter this opposition, and to show Canadians what the potential market might represent for their economy, these industrialists commissioned a study based on surveying/polling, that found that many Americans would support higher gas prices if, in exchange, they could get oil from a stable supplier. Moreover, this study found, most Americans were not even aware that Canada was an oil exporter already. All of this implying that Canadian oil exporting firms could do much to enhance this market, at home and in the U.S., through better PR.
This kind of story, I suggest but, of course, do not know, was unaccaptable to the editor who supervised the journalist who wrote it. Such a story on Canadian affairs could only fail to get anyone's attention in a country whose media has long since learned that Canadians tend to respond favorably and enthusiastically to a range of, for example, antiAmerican/smug Canadian superiority, Molson-style, marketing campaigns and information.
The story that Mithridates found, accepted the headline at face value, and then repeated here without even thinking these things through, singled out and enhanced the above-mentioned study's findings that "Americans were ignorant of Canada's importance to them," or something very like this. That was the story's "spin."
This story, which was now a thread on this forum, provoked many sarcastic antiAmerican/Canadian superiority comments like "now they will invade us to promote democracy," or "we've always known that Americans are stupid."
But, we all know, that was not what that story was about. That story treated Canadian affairs -- and, I might add, was interesting on its own merits. In any case, the United States and Americans were merely incidental to the central story and the problem it addressed.
The story became what it did, then, first in the Canadian newspaper, and then here on this board, because of many people's ingrained antiAmerican/smug Canadian superiority views -- which are supported by ingrained Canadian apathy on Canadian affairs and, again, as you, Laogaiguk, said, a strong tendency for news agencies to find and report mostly negative information.
have never meant to place this kind of antiAmericanism in the same league with those Iranians who stormed and seized our embassy in 1979. But if you cannot see the issues and faults I refer to here, in your thinking on world affairs, then I think you are the one who is rigidly and emotionally refusing to see things in a new light and not me...
So, in conclusion, you and many others here, claim to honestly have an interest in addressing faults and problems and making constructive criticisms. Are you capable of applying that to the problems I have discussed here? Are you capable of even recognizing or at least acknowledging the problems I have discussed here? |
Again, I have never actually disagreed with this, nor do, but I still don't think you should have attacked Mith based on something he posted (or even a few others) awhile ago. I still disagree anything in this thread was biased. Maybe Mith is biased against the US, I don't know. I don't spend enough time down here to know. But, I didn't see anything wrong with his response in this thread atleast. I am not the only one.
As for the bolded part, I will say again to stop making that accusation. It is wrong and again part of what I called "your witchhunt". If you frequented the other boards, you would see I post articles all the time, and they most definitely do not even 10% of the time deal with America and I post positive stories when I can, but there just aren't that many, and the few there are won't draw any response, so I don't bother usually. Like EVERYONE ELSE ON PRACTICALLY EVERY WEBSITE THERE IS I check CNN, the BBC, The Toronto Star, and my hometown newspaper everyday. Sometimes I check out the Yomiyuri Shinbun. I know, they are not the best places for accurate news, but they have much more scope in their news. I usually read Science or Technology articles first.
Actually, the last article I posted was about some stupid farmers not allowing the Snowbirds in Ontario to fly over the school of the child of a Snowbird who was killed a few years ago due to noise. I think you make assumptions about people with very little information, which is where my witchhunt term is coming from. Again, if you went to other forums, or check my search history for all my previous articles, this is what you get (though I talk about many other things). I don't really post that many articles compared to how many posts I write. And as you can see down below, these were the last four articles I had posted. Current events is not really the place for posiitive articles, as there are none interesting enough. You are looking too much into things.
The snowbirds one
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=65112
The last article before that I posted was about Pluto being demoted
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=65107
The next one is about porn in hotels, which is a conservative versus liberal thing, and against free speechhttp://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=64254
This next one was about a mistake of a CNN reporter who left her mike on during th presidents speech.
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=64847&highlight= |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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If I recall correctly, some Albertan industrialists wanted to invest in and create new markets for an as yet untapped resource in their state. But other Canadians, namely, those with environmentalist sympathies, tended to oppose this. To counter this opposition, and to show Canadians what the potential market might represent for their economy, these industrialists commissioned a study based on surveying/polling, that found that many Americans would support higher gas prices if, in exchange, they could get oil from a stable supplier. Moreover, this study found, most Americans were not even aware that Canada was an oil exporter already. All of this implying that Canadian oil exporting firms could do much to enhance this market, at home and in the U.S., through better PR.
This kind of story, I suggest but, of course, do not know, was unaccaptable to the editor who supervised the journalist who wrote it. Such a story on Canadian affairs could only fail to get anyone's attention in a country whose media has long since learned that Canadians tend to respond favorably and enthusiastically to a range of, for example, antiAmerican/smug Canadian superiority, Molson-style, marketing campaigns and information.
The story that Mithridates found, accepted the headline at face value, and then repeated here without even thinking these things through, singled out and enhanced the above-mentioned study's findings that "Americans were ignorant of Canada's importance to them," or something very like this. That was the story's "spin."
This story, which was now a thread on this forum, provoked many sarcastic antiAmerican/Canadian superiority comments like "now they will invade us to promote democracy," or "we've always known that Americans are stupid."
But, we all know, that was not what that story was about. That story treated Canadian affairs -- and, I might add, was interesting on its own merits. In any case, the United States and Americans were merely incidental to the central story and the problem it addressed.
The story became what it did, then, first in the Canadian newspaper, and then here on this board, because of many people's ingrained antiAmerican/smug Canadian superiority views -- which are supported by ingrained Canadian apathy on Canadian affairs and, again, as you, Laogaiguk, said, a strong tendency for news agencies to find and report mostly negative information.
I have never meant to place this kind of antiAmericanism in the same league with those Iranians who stormed and seized our embassy in 1979. But if you cannot see the issues and faults I refer to here, in your thinking on world affairs, then I think you are the one who is rigidly and emotionally refusing to see things in a new light and not me...
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Gopher:
If you're saying that there is too much of that whiny, self-absorbed nationalist prima donna crap in the Canadian popular media, I agree with you. Canadians who ridicule Americans for not knowing about the Alberta oil can be asked to name Belgium's top exports.
Having said that, I don't know if a PR campaign, such as you propose, would really do much to make Americans more aware of Canadian exports. I'd imagine most Americans don't really know or care where the gas in their tank comes from, just as most Canadians(and probably Americans) wouldn't think about where their clothing came from if it didn't say on the label. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
Having said that, I don't know if a PR campaign, such as you propose, would really do much to make Americans more aware of Canadian exports. I'd imagine most Americans don't really know or care where the gas in their tank comes from, just as most Canadians(and probably Americans) wouldn't think about where their clothing came from if it didn't say on the label. |
Are you kidding Most people don't know where it came from even if it does say on the label... That's how little they care. Unless Martha Stewart is forcing underage kids to make it, then everybody cares. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| I don't know if a PR campaign, such as you propose, would really do much to make Americans more aware of Canadian exports. I'd imagine most Americans don't really know or care where the gas in their tank comes from... |
I do not disagree with this at all, and, incidentally, I did not intend to propose such a PR campaign.
Rather, my point was simply that I believe that polls like that are pretty rational and that this poll in particular may indicate that those Canadian interests who wish to develop Alberta's oil potential might have been thinking along the lines of generating sufficient momentum to get their project going (and overcome local obstacles) by educating the American as well as the Canadian publics on the benefits -- after all such a venture would necessarily involve not only convincing Americans to pay higher gas prices (and not complain about it) just as much as it would necessarily involve Canadians (particularly environmental-ecological activists) to go along with such a venture.
But, in any case, I was neither proposing nor rejecting such a PR campaign. My point was that I think this was how the "development-oriented" Canadian interests (if I may call them that) were thinking with respect to the particular poll questions they formed on this specific issue... |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:21 am Post subject: Re: Disturbing |
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| mithridates wrote: |
One sentence in this article is pretty disturbing. Can anybody guess which it is?
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WASHINGTON, Sept. 3 � After a year of political turmoil, Republicans enter the fall campaign with their control of the House in serious jeopardy, the possibility of major losses in the Senate, and a national mood so unsettled that districts once considered safely Republican are now competitive, analysts and strategists in both parties say.
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I'm going to go with this one. |
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