Korean Job Discussion Forums

[SPINOZA]

Many people will consider this a stupid and downright offensive question. Even though I'm asking it, don't really care what people think, and understand the obvious objection "how can a man who ordered the murder of over 6 million people possibly be a genius?", I think this a legitimate enquiry.

I'm going to give you my view. My view is 'yes'. I am not an anti-semite. I neither support nor don't support Jewish causes, although certainly do oppose their erradiction.

So why was he a genius? Because he was a very ordinary man in every way. He was not academically gifted at all and was not particularly handsome, yet the way in which he manipulated conditions in Germany with rhetotic and charisma was absolutely remarkable. He subsumed the German state into himself, essentially becoming Germany personified, even though he wasn't even German (not that there's much interesting difference between Austria and Germany - it's a highly tiresome point that Hitler was Austrian). He had an idea, he had absolute passion, and absolutely everyone bought it, pretty much. People who met Hitler claimed to immediately fall under "his spell". Partly out of people's desperation and partly out of something Hitler had in his personality, he took over an entire country which was originally a poor shambles and transformed it into an industrial superpower that almost conquered the planet, and is a seminal figure.

Just because people do terrible things, it doesn't mean they're not geniuses. Limiting 'genius' to people who have done things we find aethetically pleasing is an extremely trivial definition of genius. Jesus and Hitler were both geniuses - one essentially good and the other bad. Stalin was a genius, even though he killed more people than Hitler. He turned Russia from a backward, agrarian state into a 20th century industrial power to rival the likes of Britain and the US, both of whom had hundreds more years to get it right. Henry VIII was a genius. He broke away from Rome and - by himself - created the modern state of England, even though he was a womanizing, brutal ba5tard, who hung people by their hair and had wives killed. Saddam Hussein was a genius. He held a country on the brink of (chiefly ethnic) civil war together - a country that had running water and hospitals. How? Because he was an absolutely powerful, frightening individual who had an influence over others that the likes of you and I cannot ever begin to understand. Geniuses are born - not made. You're either a leader or you're not.

I know I'm not a leader. I know I cannot frighten people, influence people, make people in total awe of me, simply by being present. I really wish I had that property, but I do not. I'm a pretty smart guy, I've had my moments, but I'm not a genius.

Returning to Hitler, Hitler is someone I accept as a dreadful individual who would best have been shot at birth, yet admire, wish I was like, think had properties no other human had. As a white, ordinary male myself, nothing special in any way whatsoever, Hitler is someone I cannot help but look up to as a rolemodel. He's absolutely fascinating. He commanded unquestioned loyalty from politicians, ordinary working people and an entire army. I couldn't do that. That's because I'm a member of the herd of ordinary humanity. And so are you.

I can't wait to see the poll results. If taken to be a cross-section of educated humanity, it reveals something interesting that many think yet never say. I never vote in my own polls if my view is already obvious. I suspect the only replies, if any, will be NOs - no-one on here who clicks YES (even though some will) will be brave enough to say why or reveal themselves, but that's all part of the fun. People should be able to say in public they think Hitler was a genius, or that intensive security at airports should not apply to whites, without being racists.

[crystal]

I pretty much agree with all the points you made and do reckon that he was a genius. There is no way that someone could achieve so much without being gifted. He had some good ideas but his way of achieving his goals was terrible. I've always been fascinated by the Nazi period and how one person was able to do so much, and so much of it awful, he couldn't have been near as successful at what he did without being brilliant in some way. Recognizing genius in someone is not the same as condoning what they've done. He was a genius just a seriously misguided one.

[semphoon]

Yes, he was a genius. Oh, if only his powers could have been used for good. Not evil.

[happeningthang]

Wow... The germans make one funny skit about hitler with a Village People soundtrack, and it's open season, huh?

Hitler wasn't a genius, any more than George Dubya is. Yes he had absolute passion, I'd say he offered compelling certainty to people who were living in uncertain, dispiriting times. But to me those who are best at leading shattered people are the demagouges who are so certain that salvation is at hand. It takes the two factors together to make it work - incredibly depressed people looking for a way out of their troubles, and someone who is completely convinced they know the way.

I think of hitler as just another cult leader in the vein of David Koresh, Jim Jones, Charles Manson. The f**k up's following these guys were all to ready to do as they were told. I don't think hitler was a genius, I think the german people were really desperate, proud and gullible.

[JMO]

Using their economic policies as examples is not a good idea.

Pretty much all these guys had very short sighted fast track economic programs/war economies that are perfect for killing uemployment but unfortunately also killing most of the previously unemployed.

I would agree that Hitler and Henry VIII were geniuses. In Hitler's case he had a genius for public speaking and manipulation. I don't really understand the point though because I thought everybody already knew this. Stalin however, I don't know. His economic policies caused massive famines in 32 and 34. Lets face it, if you are prepared to kill that many people to achieve a goal, you are not a genius as that is not (if you have no moral conscience(sp) and absolute power) very hard to do. I seperate Hitler from Stalin becaus it was harder for Hitler to gain control in Germany. Stalin was in the perfect positon.

If your looking for a genius from just before that timeframe, I'd recommend Bismarck. He had a major hand in the creation of the German state, and also maintained peace in Europe for a good half century.

[dbee]

To take Germany from a broken, inflation-cursed and humiliated nation to the World's strongest superpower in a little over 10 years was certainly one of the most astounding feats of the 20th Century.

After declaring war on the US, he was taking on three of the world's superpowers simulataneously. And he almost beat them. But in hindsight it probably wasn't too clever a move.

Was he a genius ? Almost certainly yes ... either that or a devil...

In murdering so many people, he really hadn't done anything that others hadn't done before him. And victory would have quickly assured him a rosy place in history.

Indeed depending on how you look at it, he was either the 2nd or 3rd most bloodthirsty ruler of the axis/allies powers, in terms of numbers of non-combatant, non-military related people killed.

Stalin killed tens of millions of Russians in military and economic purges. Churchill sat by and let 5 million Bengalese die, in order to facilitate his scorched earth policy near Burma, as well as using gas against tribes people in the middle East. Hirohito oversaw the rape of Nanking and Unit 731 in China.

Also Eisenhower of course, dropped two nukes on Japan.

[Juregen]

A good politician, probably

a genius, no way.

It are the people who worked for him who had the brains of setting up this operation, hitler just saw it as a scapegoat and it got out of hand.

[canuckistan]

Not a genius. Just one of many "charismatic" types who appear at the right (wrong?) time in the right place to seize the moment and manage to hold sway over weaker-minded individuals to follow their "vision" and do their bidding--with increasingly draconian methods of oppression once the whole awfulness of their twisted psyche is finally comprehended by the smarter folk.

In the end they're all the same pissant little cowards with the same delusions of grandeur and they won't think twice about destroying everyone/everything in their path/wake.

[mithridates]

I'd say he was a genius for a while, just like Ozzy Osbourne and the others were when they were Black Sabbath. Hitler would have been remembered as one of Germany's greatest leaders if he had died around 1937 or so. After a while he seemed to have developed a weird obsession with the UK, either wanting to ally with them or destroy them if I remember correctly. Near the end he was the furthest thing from a genius, ignoring reports from the battlefront and doing a lot of other irrational things.
I agree that certain parts of his life are inspiring, especially his earlier life in Vienna when he was poor and lived off of painting. He knew that he was supposed to be doing something else than manual labour or something else to get by but didn't know what, and too proud to ask for money from his friend or work in something that didn't suit him he eventually ended up on the street. That made him a bit humble for a while and he just hung around the place where he eventually ended up where everybody had their own small room and he just painted and talked with the people that lived there and everybody liked him. I think what eventually started him down the path he took was his fascination with legends, which turned into an intense nationalism that made him enjoy the war more than he should have, and that compiled with all the close calls he had during the war and afterwards seemed to have convinced him that he was invincible and made for greatness, which can still work as long as you're still successful in what you do but once the tide in the war began to shift that began to conflict with reality and that's when he lost it.

That's my impression of him anyway. I don't think I would call that genius, maybe inspired or something like that, but since it's closer to genius than to a simple lack of it, I voted yes.

I don't agree that geniuses are born not made though.

[Summer Wine]

I said no, because near the end of WW2, the number of bad decesions he made lost the war for Germany, though even attacking Russia before defeating his western european enemies could have been viewed as a bad decesion earlier in the war.

[otis]

Hitler was an absolute political genius.

However, he wasn't a military genius. And thank God for that.

[cbclark4]

Anyone who thinks Hitler a genius never read "Mein Kampf".

A worse piece of drivel than the "c" Manifesto.

cbc

[The Man known as The Man]

[Swiss James]

yeah it's an interesting question but I don't really see what the point is in answering it. Calling Eric Clapton or Karl Lagerfeld a genius wouldn't raise an eyebrow, and yet someone who led a country into doing something that seems insane now must take a personality of incredible force and cunning.

So what do you do, go back to the dictionary to see what a 'genius' is and whether he qualifies? It's all a bit second year university.

Guy was a *beep*. That's all you really need to know

[djsmnc]

Yeah he was a genius! He came up with the idea of and helped design the VW Beetle, a monumental artifact of the 20th century.