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hepcat
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Location: Daegu
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 Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:08 am Post subject: "US Plans to 'Fight the Net' Revealed," says BBC |
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4655196.stm
I find the part about propaganda most interesting, and most unsurprising.
Throughout history, you can find many examples of an army (and allied institutions), deprived of a credible outside threat, turning on and feeding off its homeland's people.
Eisenhower and Kennedy both warned of this in easy to find speeches. |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah you have to wonder how long it will be before the government controls ALL political activities. We are well on our way. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:00 am Post subject: |
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Reading that reminded me of the role of British propaganda played in getting the US to enter World War I. They were masters at shaping the US attitude toward the 'Huns'.
While the article was fair, I think it would have been better to mention similar activities by other countries. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| Someone had a great quote that Europeans were always claiming America was on the verge of falling into fascism and yet Europeans never seemed to notice it was themselves who were actively embracing fascist governments and the only ones actually falling into fascism. |
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DCJames
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Someone had a great quote that Europeans were always claiming America was on the verge of falling into fascism and yet Europeans never seemed to notice it was themselves who were actively embracing fascist governments and the only ones actually falling into fascism. |
Threat of America falling to fascism > Threat of Europe falling to fascism |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| DCJames wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Someone had a great quote that Europeans were always claiming America was on the verge of falling into fascism and yet Europeans never seemed to notice it was themselves who were actively embracing fascist governments and the only ones actually falling into fascism. |
Threat of America falling to fascism > Threat of Europe falling to fascism |
*Cough*
Interesting viewpoint there, James.
Especially since EUROPE HAS FALLEN TO FASCISM TIME AND AGAIN AND THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA HAS NOT.
But, I guess your little "greater than" equation sounded a lot better in your head than it did to someone who is actually capable of thinking about it. |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Pligganease wrote: |
| DCJames wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Someone had a great quote that Europeans were always claiming America was on the verge of falling into fascism and yet Europeans never seemed to notice it was themselves who were actively embracing fascist governments and the only ones actually falling into fascism. |
Threat of America falling to fascism > Threat of Europe falling to fascism |
*Cough*
Interesting viewpoint there, James.
Especially since EUROPE HAS FALLEN TO FASCISM TIME AND AGAIN AND THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA HAS NOT.
But, I guess your little "greater than" equation sounded a lot better in your head than it did to someone who is actually capable of thinking about it. |
Really? A judge had to rule that kids can wear anti-Bush T-shirts to school. Heck, this should have been a no-brainer because free speech is guaranteed by your constitution. Isn't your constitution an absolute? Then why would a judge even need to get involved if the US truly was a free society as guaranteed by your constitution? The message seems clear to me: the US is only a free society as long as you don't stroke the government the wrong way. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| A judge had to rule that kids can wear anti-Bush T-shirts to school. Heck, this should have been a no-brainer because free speech is guaranteed by your constitution. Isn't your constitution an absolute? |
Just because the constitution is an absolute doesn't mean that schools don't try to infringe upon it sometimes. It isn't as if the constitution itself has the physical power to stop schools from regulating dress codes. If schools try that, they can be stopped by a judge, which is what happened in the case you cite. |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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| A judge had to rule that kids can wear anti-Bush T-shirts to school. Heck, this should have been a no-brainer because free speech is guaranteed by your constitution. Isn't your constitution an absolute? |
Just because the constitution is an absolute doesn't mean that schools don't try to infringe upon it sometimes. It isn't as if the constitution itself has the physical power to stop schools from regulating dress codes. If schools try that, they can be stopped by a judge, which is what happened in the case you cite. |
Don't forget that schools are government entities. It would have been quite easy for the government to tell the schools to drop it, but they chose not to. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| A judge had to rule that kids can wear anti-Bush T-shirts to school. |
I think a more surefire sign of creeping fascism would be if a judge(not a school principal) ruled that schools can ban anti-Bush t-shirts while at the same time not banning anti-Democrat t-shirts. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| Pligganease wrote: |
| DCJames wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Someone had a great quote that Europeans were always claiming America was on the verge of falling into fascism and yet Europeans never seemed to notice it was themselves who were actively embracing fascist governments and the only ones actually falling into fascism. |
Threat of America falling to fascism > Threat of Europe falling to fascism |
*Cough*
Interesting viewpoint there, James.
Especially since EUROPE HAS FALLEN TO FASCISM TIME AND AGAIN AND THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA HAS NOT.
But, I guess your little "greater than" equation sounded a lot better in your head than it did to someone who is actually capable of thinking about it. |
Really? A judge had to rule that kids can wear anti-Bush T-shirts to school. Heck, this should have been a no-brainer because free speech is guaranteed by your constitution. Isn't your constitution an absolute? Then why would a judge even need to get involved if the US truly was a free society as guaranteed by your constitution? The message seems clear to me: the US is only a free society as long as you don't stroke the government the wrong way. |
God, I hate defending Pliganesse, the complete tard that he is, but they recently jailed a guy in Belgium for denying the Holocaust. Denying the Holocaust takes a very special kind of stupidity, but he is not allowed to go against the government and has been jailed for expressing his right to say what he wants.
AMerica is still one of the most free countries out there, and would never be able to hit a pre-invasioan Taliban Afghanistan (it would collapse as a nation before it hit that), but what people (espcially the America "apologists") don't see is while America is not near as bad as people say, it's currenltly on a downward slope. A very small slope, but downward none-the-less. They're too busy worrying about their pride though to see this. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
On the other hand wrote:
Quote:
A judge had to rule that kids can wear anti-Bush T-shirts to school. Heck, this should have been a no-brainer because free speech is guaranteed by your constitution. Isn't your constitution an absolute?
Just because the constitution is an absolute doesn't mean that schools don't try to infringe upon it sometimes. It isn't as if the constitution itself has the physical power to stop schools from regulating dress codes. If schools try that, they can be stopped by a judge, which is what happened in the case you cite.
Don't forget that schools are government entities. It would have been quite easy for the government to tell the schools to drop it, but they chose not to. |
I am not entirely familiar with the structure of the US educational system. I know there is a federal department of Education, but it seems to me that they've only existed since Carter's term, and are mostly involved in the distribution of funds. Plus, I don't think they regulate sartorial issues at the school level(remember, it isn't as if there was a nationwide ban on anti-Bush t-shirts.)
So I'm wondering which level of government(local, state, federal) would be responsible for telling a principal or a school board trustee whether or not he can ban a particular t-shirt. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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they recently jailed a guy in Belgium for denying the Holocaust. Denying the Holocaust takes a very special kind of stupidity, but he is not allowed to go against the government and has been jailed for expressing his right to say what he wants.
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Never mind the holocaust. In France, it is actually illegal for anyone, not just schoolkids, to insult the president.
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| Under French law it is a criminal offence to insult the president, carrying a fine of up to 45,000 euros (�30,000). |
Can you imagine how the anti-Americans would be carrying on if such a law were so much as being proposed in the US?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,919003,00.html |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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they recently jailed a guy in Belgium for denying the Holocaust. Denying the Holocaust takes a very special kind of stupidity, but he is not allowed to go against the government and has been jailed for expressing his right to say what he wants.
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Never mind the holocaust. In France, it is actually illegal for anyone, not just schoolkids, to insult the president.
| Quote: |
| Under French law it is a criminal offence to insult the president, carrying a fine of up to 45,000 euros (�30,000). |
Can you imagine how the anti-Americans would be carrying on if such a law were so much as being proposed in the US?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,919003,00.html |
I didn't know that.  You are right if that happened in America, there would be hell to pay. Stupid Frog President.  |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:12 am Post subject: |
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OTOH is right about schools. The public schools are locally funded (mostly) and locally governed (mostly). Most schools get most of their funding from local property taxes, which is why schools vary so much in the amount of money available to spend.
Generally speaking, the local school board determines a school's dress code. If they want the kids to wear uniforms, they can do that.
As to clothing as free speech...back in the 60's a girl wore an anti-war arm band to school as a form of protest. The school said she couldn't do that. It's normal when two rights are in conflict (here the right of the school to determine appropriate clothing and a student's claim of free speech) for the issue to go to court. In the end, the US Supreme Court decided that kids' free speech rights do not stop at the school house door.
Hollywoodaction's statement about the Constitution being absolute misses a key fact about real life. In real life, many things are not black and white. Using freedom of religion:
a. Do I have the right to believe Zeus is the supreme deity? Yes, I do.
b. Can I preach that in public? Sure.
c. Can I preach that in public with a bullhorn at 3am? No. I'm disturbing the peace. Does that infringe on my religious freedom? The Court says other people also have a right to get a good night's sleep.
d. Can I set up an altar in my garage and cut off chicken's heads in sacrifice? Sure you can.
e. Can I go out in the country and gather up a gunny sackful of rattlesnakes and bring them to church with me on Sunday so my fellow worshipers can hold the snakes and kiss them while we dance around the back yard? No you can't. If one of your snakes gets loose, it will endanger the neighbors. Hold your ceremony out in the woods.
My rights and your rights are often in conflict. It is the Court's job to balance those rights. In that sense, rights are not absolute and cannot be. If you want absolute rights, then go live alone on a deserted island where you cannot infringe on anyone else's rights. |
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