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Boodleheimer
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Location: working undercover for the Man
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 Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
Israel's enemies have persecuted and continue to persecute their minority groups - far worse than anything Israel has done
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maybe the discussion should be less about who persecutes the least and more about how the persecution could be stopped. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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Arab/Muslim world is political -- if their interests were the betterment of the lives of the Palestinians, there would not be so many millions of Palestinians living in squalid camps.
Dbee
... that statement is ridiculous
Lets see
Who cares about Palestinians?
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Posted: August 23, 2001
1:00 a.m. Eastern
Who really cares about the human rights of Palestinian Arabs?
Syria, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and other Muslim nations have warned Israel, in various ways and with different degrees of intensity, over the Jewish state's alleged mistreatment of Palestinian Arabs.
There's one major problem with these threats. These nations have done far less for Arab Palestinians than Israel has.
That's right. I said it, and I mean it.
Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about.
The Jordan Times reports that "Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, who have long been denied many civil rights including the right to work, now face a new obstacle in their precarious lives."
Under a bill introduced by parliament earlier this year, Palestinian Arabs will be deprived of their right to own property. Those who already own property will not be able to pass it on to their children.
Now just imagine if Israel passed such a law? Can you imagine the international outcry? What would the United Nations have to say about this? How long would it take to equate Zionism with racism again? How would the media establishment in the West view such a draconian ploy?
Yet, this is happening in an Arab country virtually without comment � except here.
And take a look at the transparent rationale for this action in Lebanon, as described in the Jordan Times: "The Lebanese parliament passed the law on the grounds that it wants to protect the right of the Palestinian refugees to return eventually to their homes which they fled after the creation of the state of Israel on Palestinian lands in 1948."
Don't you love that? We are protecting your rights by denying your rights. Only in the Arab world could such hypocritical duplicity occur without international ridicule and universal denunciation.
Keep in mind that most Palestinian refugees today were born well after 1948. They never lived in the land called Palestine. And the reason is that their Arab neighbors have been so inhospitable to them. They have not allowed them to resettle because Arab leaders are determined to fan the flames of hate with Israel. They want to keep this scapegoat issue of a Palestinian homeland alive so that the Arab people don't turn their enmity toward their own leadership and begin questioning why they are deprived of their own human rights.
Lebanon, by the way, is a virtual client state of Syria. It is occupied by the Syrian army. No significant political decision is made in Beirut without the approval and direction of Damascus. And it is Damascus, more than any other Arab capital, that supports the Arab terror campaign in Israel, that undermines every attempt at peaceful reconciliation between Arab and Jew and that has orchestrated this strategy of actively denying Palestinians their human rights in the name of Palestinian human rights.
How bad is the situation in Lebanon? Here are more details as reported by the Jordan Times � not exactly a mouthpiece for the vast international Zionist conspiracy:
Under the Lebanese labor law that governs foreigners, Palestinians are denied 74 forms of employment;
Palestinians face tight exit and entry requirements;
Palestinians in Lebanon are not allowed citizenship;
Palestinians are confined to 12 camps with no medical, social or educational services from the government and are barred in some of those camps from building or even repairing homes.
Some in Lebanon have even recognized the "racist" nature of this anti-Palestinian campaign � policies far worse than anything ever contemplated by Israel.
Yet, more than half a million Syrians marched earlier this week in support of the Palestinian uprising in Israel, chastising the Jewish state for "Nazi and fascist" practices. Do those Syrian citizens have any idea of what kind of oppression Palestinian Arabs face next door in Lebanon? Do they have any idea that their government is directly supporting such policies? Are they aware that more Syrian troops are headed to Lebanon now to support the Beirut regime that has imposed such repressive measures?
While Israel has bent over backwards to accommodate the Palestinian Arabs � especially those victimized by the 1948 war � the Arab nations have only sought to exploit their misery. That exploitation continues today. It is overt. It is a matter of law. Yet the world sees it not. |
http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24170 |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| KWhitehead wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
Israel's enemies have persecuted and continue to persecute their minority groups - far worse than anything Israel has done
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maybe the discussion should be less about who persecutes the least and more about how the persecution could be stopped. |
Arafat ought to have accepted Bill Clintons' peace offer.
The Palestinian side ought to elect Abu Abbas and Mohamad Dihlan and Sari Nussebehi instead of Hamas |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| dbee wrote: |
The facts are simple, but it basically comes down to this IMO...
(1) Israel knew exactly what it was doing over half a century ago when it went into the land that is now called Israel, with guns ablazing. They made their choices, they murdered, they committed genocide, they pillage, burned and forced whole communities to leave land that they had occupied for 100's if not 1000's of years.
(2) Now that all finished, and Israel has everything it could ask for ... having integrated a few token arabs and hearded the rest of them into camps. While at the same time stockpiling nukes, and warmongering abroad. Israel suddently wants to call time. (3) They have everything that they could want, so now they'd like 'peace', but of course rather than peace, it's really an 'Israeli peace'.
(4) The arabs on the other hand have lost everything. They're murdered daily, they've been tossed off their land and into the hell hole called the Gaza strip and West Bank.
(5) But, paradoxically it turns out that the arabs have never been stronger. By dint of the fact that there really isn't anything more Israel can throw at them. They won't sign an Israeli peace, the Israeli's brought war, now war is what they're going to get in return.
Yes, I wish that the region achieved peace. (6) But no, I don't feel in the least bit sorry for the Israelis. They dug their hole and now they're being forced to stand in it ... If Israel wants to blame anyone, then it should start by looking in the mirror IMO. |
(numbers are mine)
1. This is an absolute lie. Israel was settled by democractic mandate from the U.N. Check your history. Or rather don't. Keep on losing any credibility you might have.
2. Really. The majority of arabs have been herded into camps? In Saudi and everywhere else? You really don't have a clue.
3. Everything...except of course democractic neighbors that follow the philosophy of 'live and let live' Everything of course...except for those sucide bombers. Everything...except of course...need I go on? Again you show your complete lack of knowledge of what goes on in that area.
4. All arabs are in the Gaza Strip and West Bank? Were you drinking?
5. Actually no. Israel is still the premier military power in the region and still the only one with alleged nuclear weapons
6. I doubt Israel needs or wants people, especially someone like yourself to feel "sorry" for them.
Please tone down the anti-Semitism next time, will you? |
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dbee
Joined: 29 Dec 2004
Location: korea
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:32 am Post subject: |
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1. This is an absolute lie. Israel was settled by democractic mandate from the U.N. Check your history. Or rather don't. Keep on losing any credibility you might have.
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... funny how the Israeli lobby have such heartfelt convictions about the UN mandates of which they approve. And yet continually ignore the many more mandates that don't suit their purposes. BTW dude - just so you can check your facts - Israel was NOT settled by 'democratic mandate'. A plan for a partitioned state was drawn up, then voted upon by the leaders of other nations. The plan was then promptly rejected by Arabs, then Israelis. It was at this time - when the war broke out - that most middle eastern Jews fled to Israel after centuries of living in arab countries.
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3. Everything...except of course democractic neighbors that follow the philosophy of 'live and let live' Everything of course...except for those sucide bombers. Everything...except of course...need I go on? Again you show your complete lack of knowledge of what goes on in that area.
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How much milage are you going to get out of the suicide bombers ? I suppose then they've been to blame for all the evils on the Israeli side for the past X number of years. It must have been the suicide bombers that percipitated the destruction of Lebanon then I guess ? Accusing the arabs of being terrorists is kinda like the pot calling the kettle black methinks.
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4. All arabs are in the Gaza Strip and West Bank? Were you drinking?
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... well yes, as a matter of fact I was drinking. But that doesn't change the fact that it's true.
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5. Actually no. Israel is still the premier military power in the region and still the only one with alleged nuclear weapons
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... if you are going to use nukes as a threat, then you can't persist with this 'alleged' crap. Israel have an illegal nuclear arsenal which they use to threaten their neighbours. Now their neighbours are getting nuclear arsenals of their own ...
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6. I doubt Israel needs or wants people, especially someone like yourself to feel "sorry" for them.
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... good, because I don't feel sorry for them. I hope Israel someday lives up to it's international and human rights obligations and joins the other civilized nations of the world. Not that I hold the Arabs to be blameless in this situation mind you. Quite frankly the arabs are responsible for a lot of the misfortunes that have befallen them too. But it's apples and oranges, Israel is more advanced and has a greater responsibility IMO. Simply because historically it's the aggressor, and the more powerful and enlightened (maybe).
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Please tone down the anti-Semitism next time, will you?
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Gee there we go with the anti-semitism thing again. Is this the longest anyone has every participated in a discussion on Israel with the AS insult being aimed at them. Just for the record. I support Israel and Israel's right to exist as a free and democratic nation. I just don't support the Israel you support. As a supposed free and democractic nation, Israel is supposed to be tolerant of differing views and opinions.
Your definition of anti-semite seems to apply to anyone who doesn't agree to what you say. Anyway thanks for the great discussion. You've just reminded me why I try not to wander into the current events forum.
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Israel's enemies sided with the Nazis and helped them carry out the holocaust.
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Yes, Joo - it's called war. Everyone sides with the people who are most likely to be of benefit to their own ideals. The US has sided with countless mass-murders, not the least of which was Stalin, as well as many other ner-do-wells in South America. Many of the IRA at the time sided with the Nazi's in order to bring a end to British rule in Ireland. Even the Stern gang sided with the Nazi's to facilitate their own mission to bring European Jews to Israel.
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Israel's enemies have persecuted and continue to persecute their minority groups - far worse than anything Israel has done
Israel enemies persected and expelled their jewish populations so now there are almost no Jews most mideast nations.
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Most Jews left when the war kicked off and Israel established itself as a nation. By the Israeli's own admission, there had been Jewish 'civilizations' in Palestine for 1000's of years.
Believe me, I'm not holding up any of the arab states as being model socities. And they'll eventually have to be brought kicking and screaming into the 21st century. However, as things stand, many of the worst and most fundamentalist arab governments are being propped up and supported by the US. Go figure.
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Some say that Israel has commited genocide. Well anyone have proof?
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Yes, lots of people have proof as a matter of fact. You might want to start with the Sabra and Shatila Camp massacres. Then you might take into consideration the massive refugee humanitarian disasters that have been cause by shoveling people from their homes and putting them into camps not able to sustain life. How many have died in these camps from malnutrition, disease and lack of clean water ?
My uncle was actually a soldier in the UN peacekeeping force at the time and he told me about it. There have been countless other incidents ... |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| dbee wrote: |
Believe me, I'm not holding up any of the arab states as being model socities. And they'll eventually have to be brought kicking and screaming into the 21st century. However, as things stand, many of the worst and most fundamentalist arab governments are being propped up and supported by the US. Go figure.
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Yeah, great idea. Look at the democracies in the region. Lebanon, Iran, Hamas. I'm surprised to see you agree with Bush. Keep the lid on the dictatorships, because at least Egypt has managed to keep the peace with Israel. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:50 am Post subject: |
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you might have.
[/quote]
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| ... funny how the Israeli lobby have such heartfelt convictions about the UN mandates of which they approve. And yet continually ignore the many more mandates that don't suit their purposes. BTW dude - just so you can check your facts - Israel was NOT settled by 'democratic mandate'. A plan for a partitioned state was drawn up, then voted upon by the leaders of other nations. The plan was then promptly rejected by Arabs, then Israelis. It was at this time - when the war broke out - that most middle eastern Jews fled to Israel after centuries of living in arab countries. |
UN 242 land for peace not unilateral withdrawal for nothing
[
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| ... if you are going to use nukes as a threat, then you can't persist with this 'alleged' crap. Israel have an illegal nuclear arsenal which they use to threaten their neighbours. Now their neighbours are getting nuclear arsenals of their own ... |
Israel is not out to destroy its neighbors. There is a difference
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| ... good, because I don't feel sorry for them. I hope Israel someday lives up to it's international and human rights obligations and joins the other civilized nations of the world. Not that I hold the Arabs to be blameless in this situation mind you. Quite frankly the arabs are responsible for a lot of the misfortunes that have befallen them too. But it's apples and oranges, Israel is more advanced and has a greater responsibility IMO. Simply because historically it's the aggressor, and the more powerful and enlightened (maybe). |
The aggressor when?
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| Yes, Joo - it's called war. Everyone sides with the people who are most likely to be of benefit to their own ideals. The US has sided with countless mass-murders, not the least of which was Stalin, as well as many other ner-do-wells in South America. Many of the IRA at the time sided with the Nazi's in order to bring a end to British rule in Ireland. Even the Stern gang sided with the Nazi's to facilitate their own mission to bring European Jews to Israel. |
that is right so Israel enemies are guilty of a great crime.
[
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| Most Jews left when the war kicked off and Israel established itself as a nation. By the Israeli's own admission, there had been Jewish 'civilizations' in Palestine for 1000's of years. |
nevertheless Israel's enemies persecuted them and expelled them.
and often Jews were 2nd class citizens in other mideast lands.
so what are the responsible for?
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| Believe me, I'm not holding up any of the arab states as being model socities. And they'll eventually have to be brought kicking and screaming into the 21st century. However, as things stand, many of the worst and most fundamentalist arab governments are being propped up and supported by the US. Go figure. |
Who does the US prop up?
How does the US prop them up/
I would appreciate an answer. Besides half of the govt's in the mideast are not even friendly to the US.
[
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| Yes, lots of people have proof as a matter of fact. You might want to start with the Sabra and Shatila Camp massacres |
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Lebananse militas did that. Not Israel.
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| Then you might take into consideration the massive refugee humanitarian disasters that have been cause by shoveling people from their homes and putting them into camps not able to sustain life. How many have died in these camps from malnutrition, disease and lack of clean water ? |
See that Israel's enemies helped the Nazis with the holocaust
that is not genocide besides Israel enemies fought a war with an objective to do the same to the Jews of the mideast. besides the west bank and Gaza belonged to Egypt and Jordan before 1967.
Besides Israel has offered to pay compensation
anyway I don't see a genocide.
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| My uncle was actually a soldier in the UN peacekeeping force at the time and he told me about it. There have been countless other incidents |
please tell us .
Israel is at war. Israel doesn't behave worse than other countries at war. It probably behaves better than its enemies during war time.
thanks |
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dbee
Joined: 29 Dec 2004
Location: korea
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:12 am Post subject: |
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nevertheless Israel's enemies persecuted them and expelled them.
and often Jews were 2nd class citizens in other mideast lands.
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... so the question then is when does it end exactly ? The Israeli arabs are treated as second class citizens in Israel. The peoples living in the occupied territories are treated considerably worse than that.
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that is right so Israel enemies are guilty of a great crime.
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Practically every nation that participated in WWII was guilty of a 'great crime'. Nuking Nagasaki and Hiroshima, the Bengali famine, the holocaust, the rape of Berlin, the bombing of Dresden. Take your pick...
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Who does the US prop up?
How does the US prop them up/
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Are you serious ? Which middle eastern regime does the US prop up, that discriminates against it's own people ? Let's start with Saudi Arabia, which despite having some of the world's richest oil reserves, has some of the world's poorest citizens. The Egyptians who are ruled by a oligarchical political elite with the backing of the US government. The Joranians, the list goes on .... One of the biggest roadblocks to stability and reform in the middle east is the US. That's fairly widely recognized. Oil wars also do nothing to temper Islamic opinion and concerns.
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Lebananse militas did that. Not Israel.
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Yes, lebanese militias that just happened to be transported to the refugee camps by the Israelis and then let loose for 4 days to murder and torture whoever they felt like, before being transported back out again.
Even for the Israeli government that was too much, and Sharon was forced to 'resign' as a government minister over the incident.
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besides the west bank and Gaza belonged to Egypt and Jordan before 1967.
Besides Israel has offered to pay compensation
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... what's either of those points got to do with anything ?
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Israel is at war. Israel doesn't behave worse than other countries at war. It probably behaves better than its enemies during war time.
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yeah, probably ... the Lebanon being a case in point. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="dbee"]
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1. This is an absolute lie. Israel was settled by democractic mandate from the U.N. Check your history. Or rather don't. Keep on losing any credibility you might have.
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... funny how the Israeli lobby have such heartfelt convictions about the UN mandates of which they approve. And yet continually ignore the many more mandates that don't suit their purposes. (A) BTW dude - just so you can check your facts - Israel was NOT settled by 'democratic mandate'. A plan for a partitioned state was drawn up, then voted upon by the leaders of other nations. The plan was then promptly rejected by Arabs, then Israelis. It was at this time - when the war broke out - that most middle eastern Jews fled to Israel after centuries of living in arab countries.
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3. Everything...except of course democractic neighbors that follow the philosophy of 'live and let live' Everything of course...except for those sucide bombers. Everything...except of course...need I go on? Again you show your complete lack of knowledge of what goes on in that area.
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(B) How much milage are you going to get out of the suicide bombers ? I suppose then they've been to blame for all the evils on the Israeli side for the past X number of years. It must have been the suicide bombers that percipitated the destruction of Lebanon then I guess ? Accusing the arabs of being terrorists is kinda like the pot calling the kettle black methinks.
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4. All arabs are in the Gaza Strip and West Bank? Were you drinking?
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... well yes, as a matter of fact I was drinking.(C) But that doesn't change the fact that it's true.
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5. Actually no. Israel is still the premier military power in the region and still the only one with alleged nuclear weapons
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.(D) .. if you are going to use nukes as a threat, then you can't persist with this 'alleged' crap. Israel have an illegal nuclear arsenal which they use to threaten their neighbours. Now their neighbours are getting nuclear arsenals of their own ...
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6. I doubt Israel needs or wants people, especially someone like yourself to feel "sorry" for them.
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... good, because I don't feel sorry for them. I hope Israel someday lives up to it's international and human rights obligations and joins the other civilized nations of the world. Not that I hold the Arabs to be blameless in this situation mind you. Quite frankly the arabs are responsible for a lot of the misfortunes that have befallen them too. But it's apples and oranges, Israel is more advanced and has a greater responsibility IMO. (E) Simply because historically it's the aggressor, and the more powerful and enlightened (maybe).
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Please tone down the anti-Semitism next time, will you?
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(F) Gee there we go with the anti-semitism thing again. Is this the longest anyone has every participated in a discussion on Israel with the AS insult being aimed at them. Just for the record. I support Israel and Israel's right to exist as a free and democratic nation. I just don't support the Israel you support. As a supposed free and democractic nation, Israel is supposed to be tolerant of differing views and opinions.
Your definition of anti-semite seems to apply to anyone who doesn't agree to what you say. Anyway thanks for the great discussion. (G)You've just reminded me why I try not to wander into the current events forum.
[quote]
(capital letters are mine)
A. When Israel was established it was voted on by the U.N. It was established by majority vote. And the Israelis did NOT reject it. They had been trying to get a country to call their own for a long time. Check your facts.
(B) When did I say the suicide bombers were reponsible for all the evils? Why are you lying about what I said? And why did you ignore what I said about democractic neighbors?
(C) So ALL ARABS are in the Gaza strip/West bank? Funny seems to me there are a lot of Arab countries with plenty of Arabs in them. Then again it seems if we inhabit two different Earths.
(D) Since when have the Israels used their nuclear arsenal to threaten their neighbors? Since they have NEVER confirmed that they do indeed have nuclear missiles, they obviously can't have used it to threaten. But of course don't let facts get in the way of your hate-filled rants.
(E) Israel is the aggressor? No, it was attacked soon after it was established. And nearly all subsequent wars were provoked by some action on the part of its enemies.
(F) Doesn't change the fact that it is true. If you post the kind of arguments that Holocaust deniers and other anti-semitics use (See A, D and E), don't be surprised if you are lumped in with them. Use historical facts or don't argue at all.
(G) By all means then continue to stay out. You won't be missed.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| deadman wrote: |
The idea of letting the original inhabitants of what is now Israel and their descendants return to Israel is obviously unacceptable to Israel. Exactly what are the reasons for this? |
1.) The original inhabitants were allowed back. They're called jews.
2.) Jews were there before Arabs, and have the longest unbroken presence in that country. 3000 years of presence in Israel. Most Israeli Arabs and Palestinians trace their family origins to Jordan and Syria.
3.) As for importing more Arabs into Israel, would you reccomend that Serbia allow in a wave of Bosnians? |
1.) Yeah and the original inhabitants of Denmark, Saxony, and Frisia, were Anglo-Saxons therefore it all still belongs to England, it's only right.
2.) Next time someone says Islam is a militant religion that forces people to convert or die just remind them of that, will you? I.e. that small population of Jews were allowed to live unmolested under Islamic rule for hundreds of years.
3.) Wouldn't recommend either option. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| Junior wrote: |
| deadman wrote: |
The idea of letting the original inhabitants of what is now Israel and their descendants return to Israel is obviously unacceptable to Israel. Exactly what are the reasons for this? |
1.) The original inhabitants were allowed back. They're called jews.
2.) Jews were there before Arabs, and have the longest unbroken presence in that country. 3000 years of presence in Israel. Most Israeli Arabs and Palestinians trace their family origins to Jordan and Syria.
3.) As for importing more Arabs into Israel, would you reccomend that Serbia allow in a wave of Bosnians? |
1.) Yeah and the original inhabitants of Denmark, Saxony, and Frisia, were Anglo-Saxons therefore it all still belongs to England, it's only right.
2.) Next time someone says Islam is a militant religion that forces people to convert or die just remind them of that, will you? I.e. that small population of Jews were allowed to live unmolested under Islamic rule for hundreds of years.
3.) Wouldn't recommend either option. |
Actually no, they did get molested from time to time. They had the status of second-class citizens, which meant that every time they came up on the wrong side of a muslim, they lost. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| ... so the question then is when does it end exactly ? The Israeli arabs are treated as second class citizens in Israel. The peoples living in the occupied territories are treated considerably worse than that. |
Well that is better than Arab Jews are treated in mideast lands where in many places they are not allowed to collect debts own land or have a job. Indeed in many places Arab jews were just expelled or persecuted.
Do the comparison.
Besides the West Bank is not Israel it is military occupation in part because the side being occupied won't give up its war.
If they want the occupatio to end then they have to give up their war in exchange
[
[quote]Practically every nation that participated in WWII was guilty of a 'great crime'. Nuking Nagasaki and Hiroshima, the Bengali famine, the holocaust, the rape of Berlin, the bombing of Dresden. Take your pick...
then Israel' enemies don't have clean hands in this conflict.
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| Are you serious ? Which middle eastern regime does the US prop up, that discriminates against it's own people ? Let's start with Saudi Arabia, which despite having some of the world's richest oil reserves, has some of the world's poorest citizens. The Egyptians who are ruled by a oligarchical political elite with the backing of the US government. The Joranians, the list goes on .... One of the biggest roadblocks to stability and reform in the middle east is the US. That's fairly widely recognized. Oil wars also do nothing to temper Islamic opinion and concerns. |
[quote]
HOW DOES THE US PROP THEM UP? What do you mean by the backing of the US govt? The US gives foreign aid to Egypt one of the more tolerant regimes in the mideast. I mean more tolerant than Saddam's Iraq or Syria.
As for Saudi Arabia how does the US prop them up? What the US trades with them.
Half of the regimes in the mideast are not friendly to the US. The ones that are friendly are not any worse than the ones that are.
To be honest you are talking cliches, that you can't support.
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| Yes, lebanese militias that just happened to be transported to the refugee camps by the Israelis and then let loose for 4 days to murder and torture whoever they felt like, before being transported back out again. |
Is that what happened. As I recall the president of Lebaon was killed and the militas were allowed into the camps by the Israels. Israel didn't tell them to do it. Israel didn't do anything to stop it , but Israel didn't do it.
they Lebanese militas did what they did out of revenge .
On another subject while it was a tragedy I don't know if the deaths of 8oo civilians fits the dictionary definetion of genocide.
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| Even for the Israeli government that was too much, and Sharon was forced to 'resign' as a government minister over the incident. |
Yes , that ought to say something about Israel. Sharon even though he didn' order the attack had to resign.
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... what's either of those points got to do with anything ? |
Ok that the occupation is not the cause of hostility to Israel and that Israel has offered to pay compensation for those who lost land in 1948 while its enemies won't for Arab Jews they presecuted.
The point Israel is better than its enemies and that even before Israel had the west bank they were under attack.
[
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| yeah, probably ... the Lebanon being a case in point. |
Yes Lebanon case and point. Israel bombed the runways not the hangers that is why Lebanon can have flights again.
That is why Israel bombed Hizzbollah TV , not Lebanon's power grid.
And if you want to do the comparison. wELL YOU SET YOURSELF UP FOR THIS
Well what did Saddam do to the Kurds when he was at war?
What did Assad do to the city of Hama in 1982 Did he destroy it?
Khomeni killed 30,000 in his purges.
Algeria' killed tens of thousands in its civil war.
The Sudan.
The Taliban - Musari Sharif Massacre anyone?
Can I find more?
Case closed.
Bathists , Khomeni followers and Bin Laden followers are all fascist bigots.What the demand is illegitmate and evil. They ought not be allowed O2 |
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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Interested wrote: |
| BJWD wrote: |
| Israel exists. Done. |
I think (if you ever met a sizeable number of Palestinians) you'll find that most Palestinians accept this reality. What they vehemently oppose is the Israeli occupation and expansionism. Presently, the Israelis are concocting a plan (naturally heralded in the US as brave concessions on the part of Israel) to ensnare for themselves a further 40 % of the West Bank, including the valuable Palestinian water resources.
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| Suicide bombs target civilians exclusively. The Israeli military does try to avoid civ deaths. A moral difference exists. |
What makes you so sure that the Israeli does try to avoid civillian deaths? From years of observation, I believe this statement to be patently false. Firing indescrimately into one of the most densly populated territories on the planet is not an example of minimising civillian casualties. Nor is bombing schools and hospitals. Nor was encircling the Sabra & Chatilla camp, inviting in 150 Phalangists (known for their barbaric war attrocities) and letting them murder and rape hack shoot and mutilate defenceless women children and elderly people, defended only by desperate and lightly armed teenaged boys (the PLO fighters had left after being promised by the US that civillians in the camp would not be harmed). The Israelis sealed the camp and refused to allow terrified women and children to flee. They had clear vantage points and the Israeli claims that they didn't know what was going on is patent nonsense as many witnesses, including foreign journalists were able to see what was happening - the IDF was observed observing. At night, the IDF light up the camp, so that the Phalangists were better able to carry out their work. For nearly 3 days, the IDF kept the camp sealed while this went on, giving indirect assistance to their proxies, until they were forced to call off the operation due to international opinion. When it was over hundreds lay dead, including small children in their nappies. If you've ever seen the photos, you'll know how sickening this was. They don't know how many died exactly, probably about 2000. In the 1982 Lebanon war, PLO would fire from wastelands, and IDF would deliberately bomb civilians who lived around the wastelands - their policy was to turn the population against the PLO. (This time round, that was their policy again - but it failed spectacularly in the latest war - and even the majority of Christian Lebanese now support Hisbollah). Often, the Israelis would tell Palestinian women and children that it was safe to return to their refugee camps. As they arrived, they would then fire missiles on them. All this is documented by Israeli sources. There are many many more examples of Israel deliberately targetting the '*beep* who walk on two legs' but I'd end up writing a 20 page essay about it.
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| To exist in a Muslim area is a slap in the face to the dominance of Islam. Muslims can exist around Jews, in the mind of most Jews but Jews cannot exist unless under Muslims, in the mind of most Muslims. |
Jews do not give equal rights to Israeli Arabs. I can go into this another time. Most Israelis I've spoken to do not want Arabs living in Israel.
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| If the Arabs wanted peace they could have it. |
many scholars have documented Israeli rejectionism. Arafat tried to negotiate peace in 1981, indeed that's why the Israelis went into Lebanon again. Because his new moderate and reasonable stance threatened their hold on the occupied territories, which they had no intention of giving up.
Israeli leaders have privately acknowledged that the worst thing the Palestinians could do is abandon terrorism. Then they would lose their pretext for not negotiating with them.
here is an article that might interest you:
http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/?articleid=4463
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| Together with Arafat, Israel buried its best excuse for perpetuating the occupation. How long can you blame the dead for terrorism? How long can you refuse to negotiate with the dead, to meet with him face to face? Not very long. More than two months after Arafat's death, even anemic Europe understands: "the 'Arafat excuse' no longer exists" (Jean Asselborn, president of the European Union Council of Ministers, Ha'aretz, Jan. 18, 2005). And what is worse: the Palestinians have now got a new leader who was elected democratically (goodbye to "ruthless dictator"), and, on top of all that, a leader who consistently and openly � in English and in Arabic � renounces the armed struggle against the occupation. On the other hand, Abu Mazen still demands complete Israeli withdrawal from all Palestinian lands, and an independent Palestinian state. This, of course, is in total harmony with international law, with UN Security Council resolutions, even with President's Bush Road Map: in short, it is totally unacceptable for Israel. |
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What we cannot live with is a moderate, sane Palestinian leader who wants peace in return for his people's lands, rights, and freedom. A leader who speaks good English and does not dress like bin Laden, who does not want to throw us to the sea but insists that Jerusalem is also a Palestinian city. Such a leader exposes Israel's rejectionism, and there lies the great danger of Abu Mazen. We cannot convince the world that we are the eternal peace-loving victims when a majority (54 percent) of Palestinians living in the occupied territories, as polls show, support a two-state solution on the basis of the 1967 lines, with border corrections and no massive return of refugees (Ha'aretz, Jan. 18, 2005). Because if this is the case, it becomes obvious that the only obstacle to peace is Israel's rejectionism, its refusal to make peace along these internationally accepted lines.
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your so full of it. irael doesn't target civilians. For one thing in the recent Lebanon war, if Israel had wanted to they could have blown the Lebanese away and massacred millions. Did they? Know. Their bombs were rpecisely targetted but even smart weapons can kill civilians
As far as for bombing hospitals and schools, duh, The terrorists often store weapons there or launch attacks from there but I see you failed to mention that point.
Also I might add that under international law, if a normally protected structure is used by the enemy for military purposes IE:storing ammo, launching attacks, it loses its statuts and may beTARGETED AND BOMBED
Israel has tried tio make peace, entering into cease fires GIVING UP LAND.
The Plaestinians demanded Gaza, they got it, and whgat do they do? TURN AROUND AND START ATTACKING. The Hizbollah wanted Lebanon's south and in 2000 they got it and what do they do? Attack!
DUring the Clinton Adminstration , Under CLinton's advice. Israel offered up major terrirotry and half of Jerusalem for a Palestinian State. And what do they do? Everything Arfat demanded was more or less given, and they reject it and continue to attack.
Its not a illegal occupation, the PLO started it. And why? Because a Jew named Ariel Sharon walked up to a temple mount that is a holy jewish site?
"Often, the Israelis would tell Palestinian women and children that it was safe to return to their refugee camps. As they arrived, they would then fire missiles on them. All this is documented by Israeli sources. There are many many more examples of Israel deliberately targetting the '*beep* who walk on two legs' but I'd end up writing a 20 page essay about it."
That is full of crap and unfounded. See that on Al Jazeera? All people like you do is try to make up lies and demonize Israel, IE: THE FAKED HIZBOLLAH LEBANON PHOTOS.
There would be peace in the ME< but ALl Israel wants is to be LEFT ALONE.
That is all. If everyone fighting Israel right now, just stopped and did no more, there would be peace. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| NAVFC wrote: |
That is all. If everyone fighting Israel right now, just stopped and did no more, there would be peace. |
there might be less incentive for them to fight if Israel left the West Bank. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| NAVFC wrote: |
That is all. If everyone fighting Israel right now, just stopped and did no more, there would be peace. |
there might be less incentive for them to fight if Israel left the West Bank. |
that is possible.
At the same time
That is would be like Gaza after Israel left they are attacked or Lebanon after Israel left they were still attacked is also possible.
Indeed before 1967 Israel did not have the West Bank - Jordan did. Nevertheless Israel still suffered attacks. What was the problem then?
Look I think Israel can come to an agreement with Mohamad Abbas. However I don't think they can come to an agreement with Hamas. More than that the Bathists , Khomeni supporters and Bin Laden followers could care less about the Palestinians rather they just hate Israel. |
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