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| Was Hitler a genius? |
| Yes |
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44% |
[ 22 ] |
| No |
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55% |
[ 27 ] |
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| Total Votes : 49 |
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captain kirk
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:28 am Post subject: |
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Ten years ago, in Canada, the Buddhist nun who gave a Sunday class and retreats twice a year sometimes talked about Hitler. Because she was 75 at that time. She was a teen when Berlin fell (and she is German).
Of course Hitler would be on her mind, then, and what she said was that Hitler's 'kundalini was raised'. Kundalini it's called in Eastern meditation disciplines. When kundalini's raised the raw power of the lower chakras, the central body energy/universal energy, rises up the chakras creating a charismatic person.
Someone with lots of energy, presence. People into meditation want to raise the kundalini and use that energy to become enlightened. They work hard at it (takes persistence, years).
But apparently Hitler's was just already raised. With all that personal power and no personal balance.... |
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numazawa
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: The Concrete Barnyard
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:01 am Post subject: |
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One thing is beyond dispute: he was a Wiener. Of course, so was Mozart.  |
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hack
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:42 am Post subject: |
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BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
I haven't been on this board for a long time and thought I'd check it out. I see this thread and think WTF? Then I see who posted it. Nothing has changed has it little fella? |
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Hank Scorpio
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:29 am Post subject: |
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| canuckistan wrote: |
| Not a genius. Just one of many "charismatic" types who appear at the right (wrong?) time in the right place to seize the moment and manage to hold sway over weaker-minded individuals to follow their "vision" and do their bidding |
Exactly. Being a great orator does not make one a genius. Caesar was a genius. Churchill was a genius. Napoleon was a genius.
You'll notice that in all my examples they were statesmen who showed incredible talent in numerous fields. Hitler was a demagogue, pure and simple. That's not genius. |
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Roch
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: Was Hitler a genius? |
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| SPINOZA wrote: |
Many people will consider this a stupid and downright offensive question. Even though I'm asking it, I don't really care what people think, and I understand the obvious objection: "How can a man who ordered the murder of over, possibly, ten millions be a genius?" I think that this is a legitimate mode of enquiry.
I'm going to give you my view: My view is "yes".
I am not an Anti-Semite: I neither support nor don't support Jewish causes, although I certainly do oppose their eradication.
So why was he a genius? It may lie in the, I believe, fact he was a very ordinary man in every way. He was not academically gifted at all -except, many could argue, in Fine Art- and was not particularly handsome; yet the way in which he manipulated conditions in Germany with rhetoric and charisma was absolutely remarkable.
He subsumed the German State into himself - essentially becoming Germany Personified, even though he wasn't even German (not that there are many interesting differences between Austria and Germany; it's a highly tiresome point that Hitler was Austrian).
He had an idea about which he possessed absolute passion, and this Idea was largely consumed by the German, Austrian, Hungarian, and Romanian Masses.
People who met Hitler claimed to immediately fall under "his spell". Partly out of the People's desperation and partly out of something Hitler had in his personality, he took over an entire country, a nation which was originally in a poor state of shambles and transformed it into an industrial superpower - a people who almost conquered the planet. For all of this, he's, in many individuals' minds, a Seminal Figure.
Just because people do terrible things, it doesn't therefore mean that they're not a genius: Limiting the notion of "genius" to people who have done things we find aesthetically or intellectually or spiritually pleasing is an extremely trivial definition of what constitutes the definition of genius. To this end, Jesus and Hitler were both geniuses - one essentially good and the other bad.
Stalin was a so-called genius, too, even though he killed more people than Hitler. In fact, he turned Russia from a largely backward, agrarian state into an allegedly 20th Century Industrial Power to supposedly rival the likes of Great Britain and the U.S.; the former had about a hundred more years to get it right.
Henry VIII was a genius, too: He broke away from Rome and - by himself - created the modern state of England, even though he was a womanizing, brutal bastard, who hung people by their hair and had his own wives killed.
Saddam Hussein was a genius, too: He held a country on the brink of (chiefly ethnic) civil war together - a country that had running water and hospitals because he was an absolutely powerful, frightening individual who had an influence over others that the likes of you and I cannot ever begin to understand. Evil Geniuses are born - not made: You're either an Evil Leader or you're are not one. It's that simple.
I know I'm not a leader: I know I cannot frighten people, influence people, nor make people in total awe of me simply by being present. I really wish I had that property; but, fortunately for Humanity, I do not own these surely despicable traits.
In sum, I'm a pretty smart guy and I've had my moments; but I think that I'm not an Evil Genius for sure.
Returning to Hitler, Hitler is someone I accept as a dreadful individual who would best have been shot at birth. Yet, I can't help but admire him. I wish I was like, in this, my opinion, an individual whom, I think, had, fortunately for Humanity, properties few other so-called human beings have exhibited in History.
As a white male, who shows nothing special in any way whatsoever, Hitler is someone I cannot help but look up to as a Role Model: He's absolutely fascinating. Indeed, He commanded unquestioned loyalty from politicians, ordinary working people, and an entire army. I couldn't do that because I'm a member of the Herd of Ordinary Humanity - and so are you.
I can't wait to see the poll results. If taken to be a cross-section of educated humanity, it reveals something interesting that many think yet never say in Public.
By the way, I never vote in my own polls if my view is already obvious.
I suspect the only replies, if any, will be NOs - nobody on Daveseslcafe.com who clicks YES (even though some will) will be brave enough to say why or reveal themselves; but that's all part of the fun.
In my opinion, The People should be able to say in Public that they think Hitler was a Genius or that intensive security at airports should not apply to so-called whites, without being labelled as Racists. |
Sorry, eh, Spin.
You really did attend a highly-ranked Polytechnic - didn't you?
Respectfully,
R
Last edited by Roch on Sun Sep 10, 2006 1:08 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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Damn I'm getting addicted to this thing.
| Quote: |
| People should be able to say in public they think Hitler was a genius, or that intensive security at airports should not apply to whites, without being racists. |
You know, I'm not sure if he didn't write all that stuff about Hitler just to sneak this little bit in at the end. If you agree that in some ways Hitler may have been a genius, you obviously also agree that spinoza shouldn't be getting the full body cavity every time he goes through Heathrow.
*the snap of a rubber glove* |
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djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: Was Hitler a genius? |
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| SPINOZA wrote: |
I can't wait to see the poll results. If taken to be a cross-section of educated humanity, it reveals something interesting that many think yet never say. I never vote in my own polls if my view is already obvious. I suspect the only replies, if any, will be NOs - no-one on here who clicks YES (even though some will) will be brave enough to say why or reveal themselves, but that's all part of the fun. People should be able to say in public they think Hitler was a genius, or that intensive security at airports should not apply to whites, without being racists. |
Yeah, you're right...NOW that I've actually read this, it looks as if he thought no one was going to explain why they thought Hitler was a genius. THEN he used it to imply that most people don't think white people should be searched in airports. Hmm... |
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alinkorea
Joined: 02 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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If Hitler is a genius, then so are Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Yosef Stalin, Fransisco Franco, Augusto Pinochet, Saddam Hussein...... None of whom even remotely qualify.
Spinoza's quote about airport security searches was hilarious. "In my opinion, The People should be able to say in Public that they think Hitler was a Genius or that intensive security at airports should not apply to so-called whites, without being labelled as Racists" You should apply for membership of the BNP or NF.
Many posters on Dave's rightly complain about racism in Korea. Judging by this thread, Dave's isn't shy in the racist department either. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| I agree that certain parts of his life are inspiring, especially his earlier life in Vienna when he was poor and lived off of painting. He knew that he was supposed to be doing something else than manual labour or something else to get by but didn't know what, and too proud to ask for money from his friend or work in something that didn't suit him he eventually ended up on the street. That made him a bit humble for a while and he just hung around the place where he eventually ended up where everybody had their own small room and he just painted and talked with the people that lived there and everybody liked him. |
He never made a living off painting, that was just a conceit of his. He was just a down-and-out who sold a couple of sketches to get by, and nobody liked him.
| mithridates wrote: |
| I think what eventually started him down the path he took was his fascination with legends, which turned into an intense nationalism that made him enjoy the war more than he should have, and that compiled with all the close calls he had during the war and afterwards seemed to have convinced him that he was invincible and made for greatness, which can still work as long as you're still successful in what you do but once the tide in the war began to shift that began to conflict with reality and that's when he lost it. |
He certainly always had a fascination with romantic nationalism, e.g. Wagner, but the reason the war was a turning point for him was because it was the first meaningful event in his whole life and the first time when he proved his worth, which was as a soldier. It shows how bad his life was up to that point that he preferred life in the army - something his comrades, who called him a 'white crow' i.e. a freak - didn't understand, and that's why he viewed the whole of life as a struggle. He never could understand why other people didn't share his view that death in battle was a release from the pain of existence.
He had relentless focus on his goal from that point on - in contrast to his former hobo existence - and he was talented as an orator but being half mad, not half genius, was what made him a powerful orator. He deserves credit for his ruthlessness and nerve in seizing the chancellorship, but he gets far too much credit for the recovery of the German economy and military. The German economy would have benefited from strong leadership by anyone, but Hitler would not have turned around the economy of just any country; he was in charge of one of the most powerful and resourceful countries on earth with hugely talented people under him doing all the work.
A genius would have stopped after the invasion of France, or else invaded England and then paused. A lunatic would have taken on 3 world powers without consideration of the consequences, as Hitler did. And, in light of what he did, I think the 'nerve' he showed in winning the Iron Cross First Class and in political brinkmanship to get the Chancellorship was not really nerve at all but insanity or insanity in the making. Some people will always admire him, but only because few understand him.
As people have said, you have only to read Mein Kampf, and then to realise he believed 100% in that crud he wrote, to see he wasn't a genius. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| mithridates wrote: |
| I agree that certain parts of his life are inspiring, especially his earlier life in Vienna when he was poor and lived off of painting. He knew that he was supposed to be doing something else than manual labour or something else to get by but didn't know what, and too proud to ask for money from his friend or work in something that didn't suit him he eventually ended up on the street. That made him a bit humble for a while and he just hung around the place where he eventually ended up where everybody had their own small room and he just painted and talked with the people that lived there and everybody liked him. |
He never made a living off painting, that was just a conceit of his. He was just a down-and-out who sold a couple of sketches to get by, and nobody liked him. |
Except that he did make a living (not a great living but he paid the rent for a few years that way) off painting and everybody liked him in the place where he lived in Vienna. They thought he was quiet and polite - he would sit in the corner and make paintings, and only every once in a while when they would talk about politics would he suddenly get all excited and join the conversation. "Nobody liked him" couldn't be further from the truth. |
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ChopChaeJoe
Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:37 am Post subject: |
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Not a genius.
Not really too bight either.
Sparkling-fresh breath though. |
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travel zen
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Location: Good old Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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You really don't have to have glossy white skin, or be german to admire all the footage of goose-stepping men at arms. The unity and presicion, the uniforms and youth, the wild-looking planes, bombers and tanks.
I loved that stuff when I was younger. I used to pretend I was standing on a podium infront to tens of thousands and use my "Hitler voice" fanatically move my hands in chopping motions.
Funny thing was when I was in Korea last year, I read Mein Kampf and when I encountered racism ( I was the only black guy that I saw in Inchon for the three weeks I stayed there) I just reflected the racism back and thought the Koreans were 'untermenchen' It worked for a while...then it became lame and childish.  |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| Privateer wrote: |
| He never made a living off painting, that was just a conceit of his. He was just a down-and-out who sold a couple of sketches to get by, and nobody liked him. |
Except that he did make a living (not a great living but he paid the rent for a few years that way) off painting and everybody liked him in the place where he lived in Vienna. They thought he was quiet and polite - he would sit in the corner and make paintings, and only every once in a while when they would talk about politics would he suddenly get all excited and join the conversation. "Nobody liked him" couldn't be further from the truth. |
I believe much of what is said about his Vienna period is speculative but it is known that he got by on a small legacy from his parents and frequently slept in down-and-out shelters, so I think the picture you're painting of a man who paid his own rent through his own work is misleading. By the way, it is often said that he made 'paintings' but what he did in fact was paint postcards. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| mithridates wrote: |
| Privateer wrote: |
| He never made a living off painting, that was just a conceit of his. He was just a down-and-out who sold a couple of sketches to get by, and nobody liked him. |
Except that he did make a living (not a great living but he paid the rent for a few years that way) off painting and everybody liked him in the place where he lived in Vienna. They thought he was quiet and polite - he would sit in the corner and make paintings, and only every once in a while when they would talk about politics would he suddenly get all excited and join the conversation. "Nobody liked him" couldn't be further from the truth. |
I believe much of what is said about his Vienna period is speculative but it is known that he got by on a small legacy from his parents and frequently slept in down-and-out shelters, so I think the picture you're painting of a man who paid his own rent through his own work is misleading. By the way, it is often said that he made 'paintings' but what he did in fact was paint postcards. |
That's right, mostly postcards because they sold well. Hitler didn't do any of the selling himself of course, it was the other guy that teamed up with him. Hitler didn't move into the place until he had exhausted all of the small legacy he had lived on for a while, and he first spent about two or three months just sleeping in parks and wandering about until he happened upon the place where he could stay in a small room and sell things thanks to the guy he knew there. |
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jessie-b
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:00 am Post subject: |
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| There's a really good book called, "The War on Art", in which the author states that it was easier for Hitler to become a racist warmonger than it was for him to continue working on his art. It's all about how we become easy it is to become blocked in the creating process and how we need to constantly fight that block in our lives. I think Hitler could've been a genius but he couldn't move past his trauma and expressed his tantrum on a large manipulative level. |
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