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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| NAVFC wrote: |
That is all. If everyone fighting Israel right now, just stopped and did no more, there would be peace. |
there might be less incentive for them to fight if Israel left the West Bank. |
There might be more incentive for Israel to leave the West Bank if it could be assured it wouldn't be used by militants to launch rocket attacks. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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chicken and egg situation.
That being said, I know Israel would have a much more legitimate case and justification for going crazy on the arabs if it DID pull out of the west bank, but continued to be harrased by its neighbors. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
chicken and egg situation.
That being said, I know Israel would have a much more legitimate case and justification for going crazy on the arabs if it DID pull out of the west bank, but continued to be harrased by its neighbors. |
Thats what happened in Lebanon. Full withdrawal from Leb in 2000, and then continued harrassment. Of course it appeared to be an overreaction, but if you relinquish your seat to someone else and then they continue pestering you for popcorn, you're gonna give them a bloody nose pretty soon.
Israel has been making all the concessions, yet still been shot at. History has shown that giving up land for peace actually has the opposite effect, it spurs your enemies on even more to get the rest it. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
chicken and egg situation.
That being said, I know Israel would have a much more legitimate case and justification for going crazy on the arabs if it DID pull out of the west bank, but continued to be harrased by its neighbors. |
No one would ever accuse Bucheon of not knowing what is going on.
He makes a very good point here. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:08 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
chicken and egg situation.
That being said, I know Israel would have a much more legitimate case and justification for going crazy on the arabs if it DID pull out of the west bank, but continued to be harrased by its neighbors. |
How about pulling out of Gaza and having it fall into chaos? I dunno, its a complicated situation, but I'm not sure that the security situation is good enough for Israel to leave the West Bank. Pulling out settlements there might be a good gesture, though. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
chicken and egg situation.
That being said, I know Israel would have a much more legitimate case and justification for going crazy on the arabs if it DID pull out of the west bank, but continued to be harrased by its neighbors. |
I agree absolutely but the problem here is that the same anti-Semitics and purveyors of nonsense would once again begin to creep out of the woodwork. That's what happened with Lebanon. Hezbollah began the conflict and Israel STILL got blamed. At least ONE photographer got caught doctoring pictures to make Israel's actions seem even worse. When you have that level of nonsense going on, nothing short of absolute capitulation will do.
I can't blame Israel for feeling defensive. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
chicken and egg situation.
That being said, I know Israel would have a much more legitimate case and justification for going crazy on the arabs if it DID pull out of the west bank, but continued to be harrased by its neighbors. |
I agree absolutely but the problem here is that the same anti-Semitics and purveyors of nonsense would once again begin to creep out of the woodwork. That's what happened with Lebanon. Hezbollah began the conflict and Israel STILL got blamed. At least ONE photographer got caught doctoring pictures to make Israel's actions seem even worse. When you have that level of nonsense going on, nothing short of absolute capitulation will do.
I can't blame Israel for feeling defensive. |
How can I agree with this?
Ah. Here's a way!
| Quote: |
| �When we left the Gaza Strip we didn�t think the terrorism would stop," he said. "We understood that there would no longer be any legitimacy for them to act. A year after they continue to re-arm. The terrorist groups -- Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad -- they did not turn the areas we left into schools, factories, and so on. They became training camps for the terrorist groups.� |
Totten continues to interview the Israeli major.
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�Another pattern that�s unusual," he said. "They use the civilian population as human shields.� It's not really unusual. Hezbollah did the same thing in Lebanon. Fighters in Iraq do it there, too, although some in Iraq also deliberately murder Iraqis.
�Does the local population let them do this?� I said.
�It�s a problem," he said. "Sometimes we see resistance. But it�s difficult to judge from our perspective. We see a lot of cases where Katyusha or Qassam rockets are fired from within populated areas. More than that, they came up with a system that was based on the fear that we would find the exact location of the rocket launchers. So they place the launchers with a timer. And ten, eleven, and twelve year old children come and take the launcher away afterwards. Often we�re faced with fourteen or fifteen year old youth who come, armed, and place charges along the fence. When we see them, even when we see that they are armed, if they are only fourteen or fifteen we only shoot to scare them. We don�t actually fire at them. Of course, only if there is no immediate danger to our forces. |
Here is the Gaza Strip. Compare how much more area the West Bank contains, and how much easier it would be for terrorists to supply through Jordan. Also compare how much more vulnerable Israel would be to terrorists unleashed there.
Israel took a chance and let go of Gaza and look what happened? For me this is the moral force Israel has to refuse to let go of control of the West Bank. Their moral force has little to do with anything being special about Israel, and has more to do with the moral bankruptcy of those who end up leading, and are given long-term support (unlike Abu Mazen) by the Palestinians. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:14 am Post subject: |
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More than 90 percent of the territories Israel occupied in 1967 are now under Arab sovereignty. To give up any more would be suicide. from the west bank, rockets can reach every Israeli citizen. Besides..israel has legitimate claim to the west bank.
"The British Mandate recognized the right of the Jewish people to "close settlement" in the whole of the Mandated territory. This was done in 1922. The Jewish right of settlement in Palestine west of the Jordan river, that is, in Israel, the West Bank, Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip, was made unassailable."
http://www.tzemachdovid.org/Facts/islegal1.shtml |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
chicken and egg situation.
That being said, I know Israel would have a much more legitimate case and justification for going crazy on the arabs if it DID pull out of the west bank, but continued to be harrased by its neighbors. |
Thats what happened in Lebanon. Full withdrawal from Leb in 2000, and then continued harrassment. Of course it appeared to be an overreaction, but if you relinquish your seat to someone else and then they continue pestering you for popcorn, you're gonna give them a bloody nose pretty soon.
Israel has been making all the concessions, yet still been shot at. |
Well it was the first offensive Israel has launched that I've supported 100%. I realize that means nothing, but I would like to hope that there are a few other people like me out there in the world that were the same way.
| Quote: |
| History has shown that giving up land for peace actually has the opposite effect, it spurs your enemies on even more to get the rest it. |
Not in the case of the Camp David accords. Worked for Egypt and Israel.
| Quote: |
| How about pulling out of Gaza and having it fall into chaos? I dunno, its a complicated situation, but I'm not sure that the security situation is good enough for Israel to leave the West Bank. Pulling out settlements there might be a good gesture, though. |
Well remember Hamas was elected into power and consequently:
1. Aid was shut off
2. A split w/in Hamas occured between the politicians and militants
I think those factors were an even more significant contributor to the chaos.
You do raise a good point about the border with Jordan and smuggling.
| Quote: |
| More than 90 percent of the territories Israel occupied in 1967 are now under Arab sovereignty. To give up any more would be suicide. from the west bank, rockets can reach every Israeli citizen. Besides..israel has legitimate claim to the west bank. |
Remember that includes the Sinai, which is a big chunk of that percentage of land (but very small population %). |
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