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daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: The Road to Ithaca
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 Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| Grimalkin wrote: |
| mmm...do you have a point??? |
Atheists can have no unshakeable moral code, or valid reasoning for their arbitrary sense of what is right or wrong. |
Well, certainly not as far as a Christian as simplistic and checkerboard black&white as you are. Fortunately, neither you nor Christianity is anything like the last word in ethics, morals, reasoning or validity. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| daskalos wrote: |
| Junior wrote: |
| Grimalkin wrote: |
| mmm...do you have a point??? |
Atheists can have no unshakeable moral code, or valid reasoning for their arbitrary sense of what is right or wrong. |
Well, certainly not as far as a Christian as simplistic and checkerboard black&white as you are. Fortunately, neither you nor Christianity is anything like the last word in ethics, morals, reasoning or validity. |
Then why can nobody defeat my argument? |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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I did Junior. All of these traits you describe as Christian were around long before Christianity. Most of these traits are beneficial to society, even if they don't seem beneficial to the individual. It's not surprising that they appear at all.
Not that a blind Christian who considers a storybook to be a good way to calculate how big Israel should be would understand that. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
I did Junior. All of these traits you describe as Christian were around long before Christianity. Most of these traits are beneficial to society, even if they don't seem beneficial to the individual. It's not surprising that they appear at all.
Not that a blind Christian who considers a storybook to be a good way to calculate how big Israel should be would understand that. |
so if I come round to your place and shoot you before running off with all your cash, will i go to hell?
By your belief, no.
So I may as well just get away with whatever i can. It benefits me to do so after all. The only "wrong" in any situation is..getting caught. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| laogaiguk wrote: |
I did Junior. All of these traits you describe as Christian were around long before Christianity. Most of these traits are beneficial to society, even if they don't seem beneficial to the individual. It's not surprising that they appear at all.
Not that a blind Christian who considers a storybook to be a good way to calculate how big Israel should be would understand that. |
so if I come round to your place and shoot you before running off with all your cash, will i go to hell?
By your belief, no.
So I may as well just get away with whatever i can. It benefits me to do so after all. The only "wrong" in any situation is..getting caught. |
Reread my post and about it being beneficial for society, and hence shows up in people without a silly 2000 year story book, or are your ignorant Christian blinders on, the ones that just dismiss anything that goes against you or did you really just not read that part? |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
Reread my post and about it being beneficial for society, and hence shows up in people without a silly 2000 year story book, or are your ignorant Christian blinders on, the ones that just dismiss anything that goes against you or did you really just not read that part? |
What you're talking about are societal codes of conduct that develop in specific relation to each culture and locality. None of them are set in stone. they change acording to circumstances. There is nothing within the individual to fasten his/ her behaviour. There is, yes, societal pressure from without the individual, to conform. But should circumstances change, each individual will do whatever benefits them. Decent loving family men go and work for the gas chambers and concentration camps by day. And so on. Pressure from society to behave in a certain way can be extremely bad, as well as good.
by contrast, in Christianity you are answerable to nobody but God. You can discern what is right and wrong no matter the changing situation, and doing what is right is more important than blindly following society and its methods.
see the difference??? |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| laogaiguk wrote: |
Reread my post and about it being beneficial for society, and hence shows up in people without a silly 2000 year story book, or are your ignorant Christian blinders on, the ones that just dismiss anything that goes against you or did you really just not read that part? |
What you're talking about are societal codes of conduct that develop in specific relation to each culture and locality. None of them are set in stone. they change acording to circumstances. There is nothing within the individual to fasten his/ her behaviour. There is, yes, societal pressure from without the individual, to conform. But should circumstances change, each individual will do whatever benefits them. Decent loving family men go and work for the gas chambers and concentration camps by day. And so on. Pressure from society to behave in a certain way can be extremely bad, as well as good.
by contrast, in Christianity you are answerable to nobody but God. You can discern what is right and wrong no matter the changing situation, and doing what is right is more important than blindly following society and its methods.
see the difference??? |
No, because if murder, etc weren't condemned, then society would collapse. These aren't changing according to situation. By definition of society, you have to follow those rules as a society. You don't need a God. They are set in stone, because if they aren't followed by most of society, society would collapse.
Anyways your God was created by society to control society. Not to mention, you guys still haven't come to agree what is right and wrong or what everyone should do anyways. Atleast be able to tell me which parts of Christianity I should follow and which parts are just stories as a group. You guys haven't been able to agree on anything, and are always changing what is ok and not ok.
Anyways, that just makes Athiests much better than Christians anyways. They are good people without needing to be told or facing consequences. |
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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| Grimalkin wrote: |
Junior wrote.
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| Their ideals of fair play, doing to others as you would be done by, etc etc...are all..Christian! |
Monkeys have been shown to have a sense of fair play. |
Koreans have been shown to think beating women is totally acceptable. Normal.
They also see absolutely nothing wrong in bumping into people on the street, cheating on your wife with prostitutes, getting married for money alone, forcing your child to marry whomever you choose, 8 people attacking one person,etc etc .
Even ripping off your employees involves no guilt. Its honorable: you are bravely acquiring more money for your family.
So....wheres the "innate conscience" in all of this behaviour?
Either:
a)Cultural values have overruled the instnictive conscience, even though deep down people know what they're doing is wrong.
b)The instinctive conscience does not actually exist
c) Right and wrong is entirely subjective: western notions may actually be quite wrong. |
Interesting to note that your biases aren't contained to mulsims. You've also got a host of negative stereotypes to apply to Koreans...ALL Koreans. What are you basing these ideas on?? Reading posts on Dave's ESL? Engaging meaningfully with the culture and people of your host country?
I thought christians were supposed to be compassionate and concerned with others, rather than judegementally proclaiming the moral superiority of their own viewpoint.
Is it really a moral issue that you get bumped into in a crowded environment? Everything you mentioned can be applied just as readily to a christian country. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="happeningthang"]
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| You've also got a host of negative stereotypes to apply to Koreans...ALL Koreans. |
Those biases were useful to illustrate my point. I have positive biases too...This thread is not about me, biases, or Koreans. Its about what constitutes wright and wrong, and how people arrive at such a judgement.
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| Everything you mentioned can be applied just as readily to a christian country. |
What do you mean by christian country?. Most of the west includes secular countries. They were once christian but now the majority of their pop. doesn't believe in Christ. How are they then christian? Ok, they retain a remnant of christian-influenced traditions, but thats about it. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="laogaiguk"]
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| No, because if murder, etc weren't condemned, then society would collapse. These aren't changing according to situation. |
I believe they are though. For example..muslim society kills its own. Women are stoned to death for adultery, baby girls killed while boys are kept, etc. You should read first hand accounts by Palestinians for example. My point is, some societies now and in history condone murder, others don't.
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| You don't need a God. |
So..you think people are trustworthy enough to act as the ultimate authority and judge over other people?
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| Anyways your God was created by society to control society. |
Try: Society created by God, and given rules to allow them to live in freedom, if followed.
You missed my main point I think: as a teacher, which class do you prefer?-
Class A) They don't want to learn or behave. You have to impose rules and a code of conduct on them, against their will.
ClassB) They are self motivated and want to study. They want to behave well and progress as much as possible. There is no need for you to impose a system on them- because they are self-regulating. They control themselves and their behaviour, from within.
Clearly, "B". People who are motivated to do the right thing, from within themselves. This is what Christianity produces. Which is better? A people that want to do the right thing of their own accord, due to belief and spiritual conviction, or a people who don't want to do the right thing that you have to police constantly? |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Junior"]
| laogaiguk wrote: |
| Quote: |
| No, because if murder, etc weren't condemned, then society would collapse. These aren't changing according to situation. |
I believe they are though. For example..muslim society kills its own. Women are stoned to death for adultery, baby girls killed while boys are kept, etc. You should read first hand accounts by Palestinians for example. My point is, some societies now and in history condone murder, others don't.
| Quote: |
| You don't need a God. |
So..you think people are trustworthy enough to act as the ultimate authority and judge over other people?
| Quote: |
| Anyways your God was created by society to control society. |
Try: Society created by God, and given rules to allow them to live in freedom, if followed.
You missed my main point I think: as a teacher, which class do you prefer?-
Class A) They don't want to learn or behave. You have to impose rules and a code of conduct on them, against their will.
ClassB) They are self motivated and want to study. They want to behave well and progress as much as possible. There is no need for you to impose a system on them- because they are self-regulating. They control themselves and their behaviour, from within.
Clearly, "B". People who are motivated to do the right thing, from within themselves. This is what Christianity produces. Which is better? A people that want to do the right thing of their own accord, due to belief and spiritual conviction, or a people who don't want to do the right thing that you have to police constantly? |
But what you are saying right there is that people who have to be policed by God (Christians) are the lower (worse) group. People who have no policing and are good (ie Athiests) are again better by your own words.
Christianity doesn't produce good people. Good people produce (not past tense) good Christianity, but these people would still be good without it. Arguing that fact is going down to the level of a slug. Last I checked, the Japanese were doing pretty good without a God (I am not counting Shinto, but that is vastly different).
We are just going to have to agree to disagree. You are definitely Christian, and continuously show it with statements that assume Christian facts. I will not argue with (nor can !!!) statements like you are making. Christianity is ignorance wrapped up in fear. People would still be good without it. And bad people (which Christianity seems to have taken the cake with if you look at American prison statistics) will still be bad. |
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Grimalkin
Joined: 22 May 2005
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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Junior wrote:
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| Try: Society created by God, and given rules to allow them to live in freedom, if followed. |
I think Moses set the standard for christian adherance to 'God's' commandments when he came down from the mountain carrying the tablets of stone and on finding the jews worshipping a golden calf used the tablets to bludgeon several people to death (despite the proscription against killing supposedly carved on them!). |
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Grimalkin
Joined: 22 May 2005
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| I can't help being a little bit suspicious that 'God's' commandments reflected the interests of the dominant patriarchal society at the time and completely ignored the rights of women, slaves, gays and children very much to the detriment of those latter four groups. As late as 150 years ago (in the then predominantly Christian England), children as young as six were send to work in coal mines, where the ponies used to bring out the coal were given longer holidays than they were, and most of them died in or around thirty years of age from the adverse effect of coal dust in their lungs. |
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Atassi
Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Location: 평택
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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Aah man. I'm not entering this discussion...just passing by...
The title of this thread is ridiculous by the way. Angry that Muslims are angry? Everyone gets angry when something valuable to them is insulted. Why does everyone forget that a billion and a half people in this world are Muslim? Why is it ignored by some here when your own people do crazy things? Some of you need a bit of self-criticism, as this thread is definitely not being very constructive.
And Junior, Junior, Junior
| Quote: |
| For example..muslim society kills its own. Women are stoned to death for adultery, baby girls killed while boys are kept, etc. You should read first hand accounts by Palestinians for example. My point is, some societies now and in history condone murder, others don't. |
In one breath you say that those Christian societies are not Christian, and in the other you say something as ridiculous as "Muslim society kills its own." First of all, adultery is punishable by death in your religion as well (I assume you are Christian). Baby girls killed while boys are kept? Apologize to God right now for saying something so false and venomous, and edit your post. Did you think Christianity allows you to spread lies about people?
And Koreans beat their wives? and you don't like it? I'm sure if you look next door back home where you came from, you could very well find the same thing. Your ethnocentrism, nationalism, racism, Christiancentrism, or whatever it is is far from being Christian. Don't sin anymore please...
I'm out |
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Atassi
Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Location: 평택
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting to note that your biases aren't contained to mulsims. You've also got a host of negative stereotypes to apply to Koreans...ALL Koreans. What are you basing these ideas on?? Reading posts on Dave's ESL? Engaging meaningfully with the culture and people of your host country?
I thought christians were supposed to be compassionate and concerned with others, rather than judegementally proclaiming the moral superiority of their own viewpoint.
Is it really a moral issue that you get bumped into in a crowded environment? Everything you mentioned can be applied just as readily to a christian country. |
Happeningthang, well said |
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