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cheem
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
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 Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| JongnoGuru wrote: |
| then why shouldn't Korea make AIDS testing mandatory of all foreigners by that same justification, as it once considered doing, and thereby minimise the risk that much more? |
Guru, you and I both know there's both an ethical and logistical distinction between an individual being diagnosed with HIV and implementing an invasive blood-test on all foreigners working in Korea. |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:57 am Post subject: |
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| cheem wrote: |
| JongnoGuru wrote: |
| then why shouldn't Korea make AIDS testing mandatory of all foreigners by that same justification, as it once considered doing, and thereby minimise the risk that much more? |
Guru, you and I both know there's both an ethical and logistical distinction between an individual being diagnosed with HIV and implementing an invasive blood-test on all foreigners working in Korea. |
Then should there be a reporting requirement for doctors, or is there one already? |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:35 am Post subject: |
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| cheem wrote: |
| Send them packing. Korea has a right, a duty even, to protect its citizens. |
We are not talking about ebola here. HIV is much less contagious than say hepatitis. Following your logic should the UK deport all Koreans who test postitive for hepatitis?
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| As long as there's risk of transmission, however small, there's justification. |
If you deport HIV foreigners under the pretext that they endanger public health then shouldn't you segregate HIV positive Koreans too? They pose exactly the same risk.
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| One poster on an internet message board, however educated he pretends to be, does not mitigate this risk by saying crap like "just use a condom". |
Everything I have said on this thread has been substantiated by reputable links. If you don't know the status of your partner then use condoms. I really don't know how an HIV postitive person could be a threat to you outside of this scenario.
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| The usual misinformation and female-to-male statistics used to justify reckless behavior |
Zuh? What misinformation are you talking about? The transmission of HIV is not very efficient through vaginal sex unless another STD is present. Did you miss the links or what?
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| complete disregard for other relevant facts such as heterosexual transmission accounting for the majority of infections worldwide |
Did you ask yourself why it's ravaged the hetrosexual communities in Cambodia, and Southern Africa etc yet not made the same impact in the west? In the west anal sex, bisexual guys who identify themselves as hetrosexuals, and the presence of other STDS are the main factors. In Afrcia and SE Asia it's mainly due to lack of education, women empowerment issues, homosexuals lying about the source of their infection (same in the west), substandard health care, rampant unprotected sex despite massive incidences of other STDS, genetic differences, and ineffective governments.
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| and more than a third of HIV carriers being unaware they're infected. |
Foreigners are much less likely to test for HIV if the threat of deportation hangs over their head.
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| Anyone who's contracted HIV has forfeited their right to live in a foreign country |
Are you including rape vicitims, the vicitims of botched blood transfusions, and the drunk guy who made a one off mistake in that list?
Last edited by Gwangjuboy on Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:20 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| Foreign HIV/AIDS patients on the other hand are all risk/cost to Koreans, no benefit to Koreans. |
If they work, pay taxes, and pay for their treatment they can be as beneficial to Korea as any other foreigner.
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| An exit order? Could the person continue to get visas? Would the information be available to prospective employers? |
Why not just simply treat them in the same way an HIV positive Korean would be treated?
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| If the person has a job teaching children, could you ever expect a Korean doctor to keep quiet about that? |
There are privacy issues here. A doctor might be exceeding his authority by disclosing a patients medical condition.
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| What about counselling and support, and at whose expense? |
In the same way that a foreigner would have to pay for his medical bills if had a broken leg he should have to foot the bill for medication and counselling.
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| If the person is a Westerner, surely they will be much better off in their home country anyway. |
That's subjective. Some foreigners might have a girlfreind, and a job they really like. Maybe they have less support back home.
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| Speaking from experience, being (mis)diagnosed with a terminal condition in Korea is a pretty good way to create chaos in your life, and a pretty good way to trigger denial, alcohol abuse and further irresponsible behaviour. |
That's just speculation. Not everyone reacts in the same way.
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| It actually seems pretty disingenuous to me for you to say something like 'risk of transmission from vaginal intercourse is only 1/10,000 and use condoms anyway' to make the case that HIV+ people don't pose risks or incur costs to society. |
I think you need to explain that one to me. I claimed that the disease was not very contagious and people jumped all over me. I have clearly shown that although not impossible to catch, even in the most risky situations the transmission of HIV is very fragile. In the most dangerous situations the use of condoms will virtually eliminate the risk of transmission so I don't understand why HIV patients should be deported.
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| You don't need to lecture us about condom use and the lack of danger posed by HIV+ people; at the same time stop trying to make the painfully naive case that all HIV/AIDS patients are angels who would never dream of doing anything to endanger anyone else. |
I never made this claim. I clearly said that cases where HIV positive patients deliberately infect others are not common. I also said that if the prospect bothered anyone they could wear condoms for peace of mind. Do you ask all your partners for proof of their HIV status?
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| And, given that this is considered to be a serious public health issue rather than a human rights issue, I think you'll find that the burden of proof is on your side - why should Korea grant visas to HIV/AIDS+ foreigners? |
What risk are HIV positive people to Koreans and HIV negative expats who don't engage in risky sexual practices? Even if there is a rampaging HIV westerner out to infect all and sundry what can they do if people make the right lifestyle choices? Do those who put themselves at risk suddenly get your sympathy for the convenience of your agument?
Last edited by Gwangjuboy on Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:22 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Troll_Bait
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
This is what Canada does:
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OCCUPATIONAL BASIS FOR MEDICAL
EXAMINATION OF TEMPORARY
FOREIGN WORKERS
Depending on their intended occupation while in Canada, certain temporary foreign workers are required to undergo medical examination regardless of their intended duration of stay. The following list provides examples of such occupations. This list is not all-inclusive. Should you have any questions about whether a medical examination is required, please contact the visa/immigration office where you are making, or have made, your application.
Occupations which bring the incumbent into close contact (more than three hours per day and/or risk of exchange of body fluids) with people, namely:
workers in the health sciences field, including staff and employees, clinical laboratory workers, patient attendants in nursing and geriatric homes, medical students admitted to Canada to attend university, medical electives and physicians on short-term locums;
teachers of primary or secondary schools or other teachers of small children;
domestics;
workers who give in home care to children, the elderly and the disabled;
day nursery employees.
Agricultural workers from designated countries/territories. A country/territory is designated if there is a �YES� in the column entitled �Designated� in the Designated Country/Territory List. |
Also, Canada requires a health check for Koreans who are spending more than 6 months there. |
A Korean friend of mine is leaving soon for a working vacation (or whatever the proper term is) in Canada. One of the requirements was a thorough medical check-up. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:28 am Post subject: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| cheem wrote: |
| Send them packing. Korea has a right, a duty even, to protect its citizens. |
We are not talking about ebola here. HIV is much less contagious than say hepatitis. Following your logic should the UK deport all Koreans who test postitive for hepatitis? |
I'd say Koreans are a fairly high risk group for HIV. Considering that they engage in prostitution and open massage parlours all over the west, why not test every Korean there and deport the ones who fail back to korea?
I'm all for reciprocating korean laws. Maybe we should send back any Koreans caught working at 2 jobs simulataneously/not paying tax as well. |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| I think you need to explain that one to me. I claimed that the disease was not very contagious and people jumped all over me. I have clearly shown that although not impossible to catch, even in the most risky situations the transmission of HIV is very fragile. In the most dangerous situations the use of condoms will virtually eliminate the risk of transmission so I don't understand why HIV patients should be deported. |
So what you're saying is that you cannot understand why a country wouldn't want HIV/AIDS sufferers as temporary workers? 
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| Some foreigners might have a girlfreind, and a job they really like. |
Not for long... |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:14 am Post subject: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| So what you're saying is that you cannot understand why a country wouldn't want HIV/AIDS sufferers as temporary workers? |
As they pose with little danger to public health I can only assume prejudice is the reason.
How could you possibly say? |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:19 am Post subject: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| As they pose with little danger to public health I can only assume prejudice is the reason. |
Oh. Of course.
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| How could you possibly say? |
True. You find a Korean girl who'll stick with you once she knows you're HIV+, you know you've found the one. |
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otis
Joined: 02 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| otis wrote: |
| I think it's a smart move by the South Korean government. |
Why is it a good idea for the Korean government to deport people with a disease which isn't very contagious? What can an HIV/AIDS patient do to harm your health? I mean you aren't likely to be shooting needles or engage in risky sexual practices with them are you? |
Look. Korea is pretty well clean. It was kind of nice back in the old days to have a little action without panicking about a raincoat.
That's how I feel.
Sorry if I'm not enlightened. |
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Smee
Joined: 24 Dec 2004
Location: Jeollanam-do
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| Look. Korea is pretty well clean. |
Somebody ought to repost the article that reported 2 new Koreans contract HIV every day. |
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otis
Joined: 02 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| Smee wrote: |
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| Look. Korea is pretty well clean. |
Somebody ought to repost the article that reported 2 new Koreans contract HIV every day. |
Back then, I could live with two.
They probably caught the stuff from foreign teachers! 
There's another good reason for deportation. |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:57 am Post subject: |
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| otis wrote: |
| Smee wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Look. Korea is pretty well clean. |
Somebody ought to repost the article that reported 2 new Koreans contract HIV every day. |
Back then, I could live with two.
They probably caught the stuff from foreign teachers!
There's another good reason for deportation. |
Haha..talk about not being enlightened. You just single handedly blamed all AIDS cases in Korea on foreign teachers.
Talk about the propaganda of the week award. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| dogbert wrote: |
Then should there be a reporting requirement for doctors, or is there one already? |
You seem confused. maybe i can help you with this simple test.
I'm a put 2 shovels in the corner. Take your pick. |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| In the same way that a foreigner would have to pay for his medical bills if had a broken leg he should have to foot the bill for medication and counselling. |
Just wondering - and I'm not interested in arguing any more - who gets counselling for a broken leg? |
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