Korean Job Discussion Forums :: View topic - Christianity has a worse history of violence

Speak Korean Now!

Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!

Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"

FAQ

Memberlist

Usergroups

Profile

Christianity has a worse history of violence
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 Next

Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author

Message

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:35 pm Post subject:

Leslie Cheswyck wrote:

[
The Gone With The Wind reference: Leslie Howard

Used to be my avatar, until one day it turned into a big red X. Crying or Very sad

I miss that avatar....it used to make you come across as rather charming and gentlemanly. Razz

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:48 am Post subject:

laogaiguk wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

laogaiguk wrote:

Moldy Rutabaga wrote:

Hehe.. I didn't read the entire web page, DD. While some of it is perhaps factual, and we should not discount a site simply because it has a religious origin-- you're right, it's not a very objective source.

Ken:>

Even I agree with this. Practically everyone has some sort of bias. It's just the Christian ones tend to let it affect their work a lot more.

I would say it's just the Christian ones that are portrayed as letting it affect their work more.

But maybe I am wrong and you have links to statistics giving evidence to back it up?

Again don't confuse Christianity and those whose claim to it is simply that...a claim.

I am not going to provide stats for that, (1) don't be stupid. (2) It would be impossible, and not worth it. Would you like me to prove 1 + 1 = 2 too? (3) Seriously, how many evolutionists incorporate evolution into every thing they do? (4) Show me a Christian whose opinion wasn't influenced by that silly 2000 year old story book in most ways. (5) That kind of argument is just trying to deflect away from the point.

Just for you though, when I said Christian, I should have said religious (as Muslims, Rteacher, etc do to).

(numbers are mine)

1. . As number 2 shows you can't prove that statement yet you are attempting to pass it off as fact? And you call me stupid?

2. Yes it is impossible. Yet YOU can do it?

3. Seriously how many Christians incorporate Christianity into EVERYTHING they do? One would have to be 100% perfect to achieve that.

4. Hold on. In point number three it was "every thing" Now it's "most ways"? Which is it?

5. Actually no it is not. It's designed to make you think about your own statements and making sweeping generalizations which don't hold up under closer observation.

laogaiguk

Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:09 am Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

laogaiguk wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

laogaiguk wrote:

Moldy Rutabaga wrote:

Even I agree with this. Practically everyone has some sort of bias. It's just the Christian ones tend to let it affect their work a lot more.

(numbers are mine)

1. . As number 2 shows you can't prove that statement yet you are attempting to pass it off as fact? And you call me stupid?

2. Yes it is impossible. Yet YOU can do it?

I am pretty sure you knew what I meant. I will try to be much more detailed in the future with you, is that acceptable?

Quote:

3. Seriously how many Christians incorporate Christianity into EVERYTHING they do? One would have to be 100% perfect to achieve that.

I said "in most ways". I said evolutionists, not Christians. Just because you made a direct link between that and the next sentence, where I made sure to say "most ways", doesn't mean everyone else does.

Quote:

4. Hold on. In point number three it was "every thing" Now it's "most ways"? Which is it?

See above

Quote:

5. Actually no it is not. It's designed to make you think about your own statements and making sweeping generalizations which don't hold up under closer observation.

To prove you wrong, to be Christian means you follow the Bible (and Jesus Christ) in atleast some form, otherwise you just believe in God, but aren't actually Christian. Due to this, you have to actually make decisions that YOU think a Christian would make otherwise if you go against them, you obviously aren't Christian anymore. So, when you make decisions, you incorporate what YOU THINK to be a Christian into your decisions. If you didn't, and went against what you believed a Christian should do, then even if you lied to yourself, you would realize you aren't being Christian by doing that thing. So if you call yourself a Christian, and beleive it, it means that you have had to incorporate your idea of Christianity into all of your decisions, otherwise if you go against that idea of Christianity, you are technically no longer Christian because you are not following Christianity.

Make sure you understand this is an argument incorporating all views of Christianity. I am talking about people viewing themselves as Christian.

Anyways, I don't care what you think. Your opinion is meaningless "to me" from what I have seen you apologize for. I also know Christians, like you, will eventually disappear. Christianity is doomed to become a silly superstition in history books as all the others have. There is no need to get in one of your post by post battles.

ddeubel

Joined: 20 Jul 2005

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:21 am Post subject:

Quote:

1. This is what you do. Start debates without knowing what you are talking about..who in here has agreed with you?

2. Again I am not the only one saying this...other people have agreed with me.

Please, I don't give a rats ass what you think about me "not knowing" . Or what others think. As I've had occassion to say before , I only care about the truth and fighting those who'd draw only one line between A to Z.

I do only post about things I know about. And you are wrong because having personal knowledge of the holocaust, having sat on committees about Auschwitz, having written about the holocaust and most importantly, to paraphrase that fine book of Myers -- I've asked the question, "why the sky's did not darken?".

You are what I call a closet denyer. You wish to absolve yourself and the Christian faith of Hitler and evil......when in fact, the Hitler we witnessed (but not to give the man too much credit, I should say, Nazism), is of our own history, blood, culture and making. Scholars upon scholars do not deny the role the Christian church played in the holocaust. I quote just one, the eminent Michael Hakeem. I think "ontheotherhand" said it also correctly several posts ago (and I do wish to address your notion of the swastika as a Christian symbol....and I do question why the mods took it off....). Same vein. I cry how the Christian church has washed itself from the millions that have died and suffered because of her evil....he writes...

Quote:

Christianity casts a deep and pervasive shadow over the Holocaust. "If . . . then" is an intriguing game some historians like to play. It is tempting to posit this hypothesis: If there were no Christianity, then would there have been the Holocaust? It is not meant to say that if there is a connection it is actually and necessarily a direct implementation of an explicitly formulated Christian doctrine that orders the killing of the Jews. It is rather meant to affirm that "ideas have consequences." Hitler's "final solution" was the culmination of a Christian idea that nourished the soil and planted the seed of anti-Semitism over a period of two thousand years.

http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/back/hakeem/index.html

Hitler was Christian (and what Christian religion was he? -- and please don't look it up, tell me, who knows nothing, which one...) in the sense that at that time, most Austrians/Germans were brought up as devout and with a rich education in what Northrope Frye lamented as fading,,,,, "the Great Code". We all talked and believed in this unconscious imagery and moral code....we were all thus Christian.

Now you might be a new George Fox, might but I doubt it. Persecuted and with a new sense of what is Christian....if you are I apologize . Odds are you are not. You would not be on this board using the internet, to be a real Christian you'd be elsewhere and be persecuted for it.....believe you me.

I hope I do not have to describe how complicit Hitler was with the church, how he managed it, used its imagery and how (and Yugoslavia, the atrocities there on behalf of Christianity would be a perfect example) he put in charge local Christians of authority in cooperation......of the Reich.

Another scholar writes....

Quote:

Anyone who looks through Nazi propaganda of the time will quickly notice that religious - which is to say Christian - imagery appears very often. It's not uncommon to see Jews draining blood from Christians and reports of plans to kill off the German race. Such vilification of Jews simply would not have been possible had not the churches already paved the way. Fortunately, some Christian leaders have recognized this and attempted to apologize. In the early 1960's, Pope John XXIII wrote:

Quote:

The mark of Cain is stamped upon our foreheads. Across the centuries, our brother Abel has lain in blood which we drew, and shed tears we caused by forgetting Thy love. Forgive us, Lord, for the curse we falsely attributed to their name as Jews.

Brave man and I applaud his courage........one of a few Catholic leaders who have led the way.

I won't go into details of my time in Europe and the hidden but still prevalent anti-semitism in the organized church there......

I only ask you become educated, not by reading revisionist literature but actual factual stuff or atleast that of a personal perspective.....what it says like Weisel as a young boy watching another young boy be hung IS, it is in us all, this evil........the young Weisel felt no sorrow, just hunger and glad he might get a second bowl of soup.

Please read Van peltz - Aushwitz.......tells it all from the earliest of times. For a read on how Christian the world was at the time, read Levi's "the Drowned and the Saved." a book with many others on the holocaust, I keep a special place for on my shelf....

Here's a little excerpt from Hitler's Religion...... to those who say Hitler killed Bishops and executed them first and hated religion....I say poppycock. Of course he was a man of ends, he used the church. Of course he wasn't a man of the cloth but he killed Bishop or Burgermeister alike, if it helped the end. If it helped the end, he promoted and applauded and shook hands with the church. He even considered it a high honour to not be cast out of the Vatican's house (ooops let the cat out of the baggggggggg).

Quote:

When Hitler narrowly escaped assassination in Munich in November, 1939, he gave the credit to providence. "Now I am completely content," he exclaimed. "The fact that I left the Burgerbraukeller earlier than usual is a corroboration of Providence's intention to let me reach my goal." Catholic newspapers throughout the Reich echoed this, declaring that it was a miraculous working of providence that had protected their Fuhrer. One cardinal, Michael Faulhaber, sent a telegram instructing that a Te Deum be sung in the cathedral of Munich, "to thank Divine Providence in the name of the archdiocese for the Fuhrer's fortunate escape." The Pope also sent his special personal congratulations!

Later the Pope was to publicly describe Hitler's opposition to Russia as a "highminded gallantry in defense of the foundations of Christian culture." Several German bishops openly supported Hitler's invasion of Russia, calling it a "European crusade." One bishop exhorted all Catholics to fight for "a victory that will allow Europe to breathe freely again and will promise all nations a new future."

Biographer John Toland wrote of Hitler's religion: "Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of god. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of god -- so long as it was done impersonally, without cruelty. Himmler was pleased to murder with mercy. He ordered technical experts to devise gas chambers which would eliminate masses of Jews efficiently and 'humanely,' then crowded the victims into boxcars and sent them east to stay in ghettos until the killing centers in Poland were completed."

other works you might read are Raoul Hilberg's The Destruction of European Jewry and also of course Hannah Arendt. Personally, I like the pure historical and Martin Gilbert's voluminous The Holocaust....

Lots of other things to read which all lead to the conclusion that yes, Hitler was our brother.....

Sorry, this was a quick post and I could not find what I wanted on the web....but I make my case. Hitler was more than enough Christian to be held accountable as such........if you deny, you only deny your guilt. ....

I wish I had a few of Irving Layton's firebrand poems to lay waste to your notion of "clean hands".....can't find any on the web. Only his words,

Besides holding Christianity as a whole responsible for the Holocaust, Layton also lays blame on the Polish nation. "Certainly the Germans felt that it was very easy to establish death camps in Poland because of the prevalent almost universal anti-semitism that the Poles had exhibited for so many years,� he says. �That�s why the Germans chose Poland."

What I want to say is that I won't go away.....things must be remembered.....dear old Myth.....

DD

Junior

Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:54 am Post subject:

KWhitehead wrote:

Big_Bird wrote:

I'm pointing out that if the Rat Singer wants to make a point about how the world is today, he shouldn't be delving into dubious quotes from the 14th century when Christians were behaving a thousand times more brutally than muslims.

the Inquisition wasn't murder... it was... love. pure Christian love.

Carried out by catholics. The false deviant branch of christianity, parading as and subverting the true church.

Christians are simply..those who accept Jesus as the saviour. A whole roll call of popes and politicians don't necessarily qualify.

thepeel

Joined: 08 Aug 2004

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:03 am Post subject:

Boy, you leave for a couple of days and everything changes! DD talking about how special and accomplished he is! Whodathunk?! Fat_Bird, while continuing to show us her ugly feet (and her indicating ankle width) and unlucky spawn, calling people uninformed and racist. Ha! And she posts junk from ZNET! Amazin!

Moldy Rutabaga

Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Location: Ansan, Korea

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:31 am Post subject:

Quote:

Hitler was Christian (and what Christian religion was he? -- and please don't look it up, tell me, who knows nothing, which one...) in the sense that at that time, most Austrians/Germans were brought up as devout and with a rich education in what Northrope Frye lamented as fading,,,,, "the Great Code". We all talked and believed in this unconscious imagery and moral code....we were all thus Christian.

But this line of reasoning is a little sneaky; Hitler was raised in a Judeo-Christian culture, he started a world war and the holocaust, thus both are the fault of Judeo-Christian thought. If we continue this line of reasoning, we can blame everything on the Sumerians, because they introduced the writing system that led to the one Hitler used. Hitler was not well-educated, having been rejected from even art school, and his self-education had heavy doses of Darwin, Nietsche, and other 19th-century skeptics or non-religious thinkers. To say that a society which led to the rise of atheistic ideologies is the fault of a Christian university system which permitted them is a little disingenuous; do we want free thinking or not?

Quote:

http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/back/hakeem/index.html

Now wait a cotton pickin' minute-- we earlier talked about taking information from biased sources with an agenda-- this is a website for an advocacy group promoting "freedom from religion"!

Quote:

It's troubling to read such events. It suggests either cluelessness or wilful complicity. But I think we ought to view such events through contemporary eyes-- around this time British royals and intellectuals were still meeting with Hitler until the actual outbreak of war. No doubt some Catholic groups were useful idiots for Hitler and supported the party. Others were under duress or such actions were directly carried out by party infiltrators. But I can only hypothesize. Nevertheless, my two points still stand; that Hitler chose to use the outward paraphernalia and rituals of the church for his own purposes; and that the later relationship between the church and the Nazis was one of executions and persecution, particularly after some church groups were involved in the later assassination attempt on Hitler. This in no wise makes Nazism a religious-based ideology.

Quote:

Biographer John Toland wrote of Hitler's religion: "Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of god.

About the only scripture Hitler was said to be fond of was the chapter where Christ throws Jewish sellers out of the temple, because he was standing up to the dirty Jews, presumably. We are back to square one. We cannot really ascertain either way whether Hitler considered himself a Christian or not. He did not attend church in adulthood, and made numerous hateful comments to his inner circle about Christianity despite any manufactured public piety. Anyone who defines themselves as a messiah is certainly no Christian. The more useful question was the party's outward attitude to the church, which was a strategy of manipulation and later elimination.

Quote:

Besides holding Christianity as a whole responsible for the Holocaust, Layton also lays blame on the Polish nation.

Layton was a Jewish poet and a socialist (and one of the first major Canadian poets). He was not a historian. And apparently he never asked himself this question: if the Christian mindset and culture of Europe is to blame for the holocaust, where does Christianity come from? It comes from the Jewish followers of a rabbi descended from King David.

The unfortunate thing about this thread is that we are debating shades of grey; how can we read Hitler's heart - why would we want to? -- and unfortunately, there was admittedly a horrible tradition of anti-semitism in medieval and early modern Europe, and some individuals who backed Hitler, at least initially. Abella's 'None is too many' is a sobering account of how Canadian politicians avoided taking Jewish refugees. Arendt is a good read. But I keep asking this question fruitlessly: 'Christian' nations such as England and America expended millions of dollars and lives to defeat the Nazis and end the death camps. What did the Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, or Confucian world do or say to oppose the Nazis? So far as I can tell, nothing- and some apparently even helped them.

Ken:>

Last edited by Moldy Rutabaga on Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:44 am; edited 1 time in total

Junior

Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:39 am Post subject:

ddeubel wrote:

Scholars upon scholars do not deny the role the Christian church played in the holocaust. I quote just one, the eminent Michael Hakeem. DD

A muslim scholar... Rolling Eyes

Nazis and muslims were equally keen to kill jews and snuff out freedom. Their goals were about as anti-christian as is possible. They were natural allies. How you consider them to be christian is beyond me. I supose you have "no comment" to the following:

Nazi officer inspecting muslim SS troops.

Nazi propoganda poster showing Al Husseini recruiting Muslims.

At a nazi meeting, WW2.

Muslim Nazi troops.

current Muslim Nazi troops.

So where are your pictures of christian ministers, pastors and evangelists meeting with Hitler to plot the genocide?

flakfizer

Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:01 am Post subject:

The way Westerners veiw Christianity is strange these days. We are told that America's founding fathers were not Christians, but Deists. Here is a quote from one of many websites formed only to "prove" that the founding fathers were not Christian:

Quote:

Clearly, then, one cannot assume from Washington's presence at church services and his membership in the Truro parish vestry that he was a Christian believer.

That's all fine by me. Whether he was a christian, deist or other matters not to me. But now, when one wants to argue in the other direction, suddenly Hitler is a christian because he went to church as a child or something. This double standard is troubling. It betrays a deep-seated desire to hate christianity and teach others to do the same.

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:18 pm Post subject:

BJWD wrote:

Boy, you leave for a couple of days and everything changes! DD talking about how special and accomplished he is! Whodathunk?! Fat_Bird, while continuing to show us her ugly feet (and her indicating ankle width) and unlucky spawn, calling people uninformed and racist. Ha! And she posts junk from ZNET! Amazin!

Good try Baboon Boy - please let us know how you manage to deduct someone's ankle width from a photo like that. You must have some special knowledge that the rest of us do not. By the way, my ankles are one place that I never seem to put on weight....I suspect I could double in weight and not show any evidence of it on my wrists and ankles...so unlucky aim. Next attempt please!

Granted, a human child may not appear cute to a baboon (they're not very hairy for a start), but as any normally developed human can see, my boy is the epitomy of CUTENESS!

<Proud Big_Bird finds yet another frivolous excuse to gratuitiously show off her treasured offspring....>

[IMG

And watch out...Big_Bird is presently incubating more of her spawn and it shall be making its way into the world in the months to come, accompanied by more gratuitious pictures...! Twisted Evil

thepeel

Joined: 08 Aug 2004

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:44 pm Post subject:

My god, who would do you? Do you just pay some poor Slovak to bite his lip and think of chomsky?

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:16 pm Post subject:

BJWD wrote:

My god, who would do you? Do you just pay some poor Slovak to bite his lip and think of chomsky?

Sigh....grade 9 humour at its most feeble.

The Man known as The Man

Joined: 29 Mar 2003
Location: 3 cheers for Ted Haggard oh yeah!

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:20 pm Post subject:

Islam has a worse history of monkey-arsed pariah Sharia law.

ChimpumCallao

Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: your mom

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:10 pm Post subject:

Quote:

.I suspect I could double in weight and not show any evidence of it on my wrists and ankles...so unlucky aim. Next attempt please!

for someone who doesnt care what others think and is only interested in scholarly debate, you sure do take a lot of time out to defend yourself, especially when someone slams your looks, therefore indicating the opposite of what you say.

now of course, you'll have to answer to this. call me some sort of simian and say that indeed you don't care...of course, of course.

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:56 pm Post subject:

Tiresome ChumpGollum wrote:

Quote:

.I suspect I could double in weight and not show any evidence of it on my wrists and ankles...so unlucky aim. Next attempt please!

Here we go...I thought a remark in that vein might soon be coming from one of you...it wasn't hard to predict...

Let me just say that it very much amused me that Baboon Boy thought he might have scored a hit when in fact one of my imagined flaws (when I was much younger and subject to such insecurites) was that my arms and legs were too skinny. If only I had plumper calves I used to say to myself - why are my legs so bony? Do my knees look knobbly in these shorts?? Crying or Very sad

The irony of his jibes were not lost on me...and very much tickled me.

As for feeling upset about any potshots about my imagined hideousness - when none of you jabbering gibbons have ever seen me, or are ever likely to, I'd be one messed up person to feel as slighted (as you would have me) by such silly witless schoolyard taunts. Most schoolboys could do better. Poking fun at other children's physical flaws is something all kindergarten kids can do - it's rather elementary and doesn't require much intelligence quota (hence the chosen weapon of the intellectually challenged Junior and co). I'm just disapointed that none of you dullards seem to have much wit or imagination because I rather love a good cyber fisticuff - give me a dogfight with dogbert or Mr Cheswick any day. Now they used to make me chuckle. I appreciate a clever insult - so far none have been forthcoming from this corner.

You and your dimwitted cohorts are tediously dull (but fancy yerselves as bright as buttons) -monkeys would indeed be more interesting. It rather astonishes me that you are probably all ESL teachers with university degrees. They must be handing out degrees like candy in the Americas. Wink

Display posts from previous:

	Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 Next
Page 8 of 9

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe