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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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 Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:28 am Post subject: |
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I appreciate BB's substantial and informed, argued posts. Not the trolls M.O. or the usual, one or two sentence speil from the likes of you know who or the cut and paste, over and over again same thing of Joo......
You all cry out about Muslim's being "of violence." I throw it all out the window and say, people are violent. There is a lot of it around , all over.....
The bible, the qur'an, the Tao te chi, the hitch hiker's guide to the galaxy, all contain wisdom. Wisdom is not of one thing, it is not of the word but the word becoming flesh -- to allude to John. Meaning, it is how we live that is the truth.
You guys and all your bravado and hate, do not have wisdom or its sister love. you are stuck in literalism, mud and ignorance. Your path is only us or them, and in not realizing the weakness of US, how humble we should be and grateful for the few moments we have here....in not recognizing this human and frail quality, you just breed death......a pox on your house...........I'm for enlightenment, in the old, ecrasez l'infame sense.....of voltaire....
DD
PS> there is both love and hate in all books. The qur'an and bible....but if you do want to read of the prophet's life , become knowing....here is a little primer online
http://www.islamway.com/mohammad/?lang=eng |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:12 am Post subject: |
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[quote="ddeubel"]
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| I appreciate BB's substantial and informed, argued posts. Not the trolls M.O. or the usual, one or two sentence speil from the likes of you know who or the cut and paste, over and over again same thing of Joo...... |
You like what you can't refute. Tough |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
You all cry out about Muslim's being "of violence." I throw it all out the window and say, people are violent. There is a lot of it around , all over..... |
True but Islam is a religion, not just a philosophy. One that gives license to and amplifies the lower, bestial qualities of humans, whilst pretending it is divine. How much worse a formula can you get.? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
| I appreciate BB's substantial and informed, argued posts. |
Cheers!
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| You all cry out about Muslim's being "of violence." I throw it all out the window and say, people are violent. There is a lot of it around , all over..... |
This is what is so amazing - that there are still so many Neanderthal's around who think that muslims are somehow so different from them. Uniquely violent and irrational. Surely it's common sense that some people from every culture are very good and gentle, some people from every culture are psychopathicly violent and most people of every culture fall somewhere in between. And yet, that simple fact seems to elude so many here on this forum. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| DD wrote: |
| You all cry out about Muslim's being "of violence." I throw it all out the window and say, people are violent. There is a lot of it around , all over..... |
Yes, a far subtler tack than starting a thread called 'Christianity has a worse history of violence,' and then denying that you were comparing Christian vs. Muslim histories for levels of violence. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| DD wrote: |
| You all cry out about Muslim's being "of violence." I throw it all out the window and say, people are violent. There is a lot of it around , all over..... |
Yes, a far subtler tack than starting a thread called 'Christianity has a worse history of violence,' and then denying that you were comparing Christian vs. Muslim histories for levels of violence. |
While we're back on topic again, I see they have no comeback to the muslim killing of 80 million Hindus in India and Afghanistan. |
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manlyboy
Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Location: Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
| You all cry out about Muslim's being "of violence." I throw it all out the window and say, people are violent. There is a lot of it around , all over..... |
Violence is the hallmark of YOUNG MEN all over, not all people in general. If you look at the demographics, Palestine, Iran, these are nations predominantly made up of young men. A population with a disproportionately high number of young men will be disproportionately more violent than a more age-balanced population. Radical Islam legitimizes and cultivates their violent tendencies. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Still convinced that Hizbollah started the war? It's well known now, even written about in the US, that this war had been long prepared by Israel with US backing. They were waiting for any excuse to launch it, and the border incursion by Hizbollah came as a welcome opportunity. The Israeli command freely admitted this at the time |
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Hizzbollah kidnapped Israeli soliders.
Why would Israel be prepared to launch a war against Hizzbollah anyway?
Could it be cause Hizzbollah is an organziation dedicated to destroying Israel?
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| Secondly, I'm presuming you are of the school of: The blameless Israelis withdrew from Lebanon in 2000 and it was Hizbollah that caused all the trouble. |
that is pretty much the case
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| Israel never really withdrew from Lebanon. They regularly (almost daily according the UN) violated the ceasefire, doing so far more frequently than did Hizbollah. The UN constantly wrote to the Israeli government pleading with them to properly observe the ceasefire. |
Cause Hizzbollah keeps attacking Israel?
You miss the point. Israel would love to make peace with Lebanon but Lebanon and Hizzbollah don't want that.
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| For 6 years they have refused to hand over the maps detailing hundreds of thousands of landmines. Civillians (including young children) continue to be killed or horribly maimed by these bombs. To you perhaps maimed children are quite acceptable. To me it is a shocking, disgraceful and unnecessary situation. |
First you have proof of your statement?
second how does this justify the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers?
Third If Hizzbollah weren't trying to destroy Israel I bet that Israel would give most any info that Lebanon wanted.
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| The Israelis still occupy Lebanese land. They expelled the poor Shiite population who lived there. Since 2000 they have regulary fired on (often killing) hapless Lebanese shepards who have had the misfortune to stray across into it. |
Really? Proof. So I can know better
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| The Israelis have kept many Lebanese prisoners, many of them civillians or young adolescents, and recently in Israel it came to light (although it was well known anyway) that many of these had been tortured horribly |
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Proof besides . If Israel is at war then why ought they give back Hizzbollah fighters who will just attack Israel again?
I mean why ought Israel return the enemy who is at war trying to destroy it.
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| Hizbollah had been trying to secure the release of the last of these prisoners, which were still being held (despite the verdict of the Israeli supreme court). |
Hizzbollah fighters ought to be in jail Hizzbollah 1) is a terror group and 2) Hizzbollah is out to destroy Israel.
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| Hizbollah's intent on capturing the 2 Israeli soldiers was well understood, and they immediately offered a prisoner swap. Instead Israel chose to bomb family homes, medical facilities, food factories, schools, hospitals, civillian convoys fleeing the bombing, roads and infrastructure and other civillian targets, killing many many civillians, wounding and maiming for life many many more (with a third estimated to be children). A very proportionate response. |
why ought Israel free Hizzbollah prisioners and other terrorists?
Again if Hizzbollah is an organzation that is not dedicated to destroying Israel perhaps Israel went to far.
However if Hizzbollah is an organization that is dedicated to destroying Israel then why ought Israel not go after its mortal enemy with everything it has?
I mean are you telling us that Hizzbollah has no intention of attacking Israel again?
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| Also, Hizbollah's border violation was the latest flare-up in long-running, though small-scale, hostilities between Israel and Hizbullah since 2000. It was not dissimilar to the regular border scuffles of disputed borders around the world. They rarely make the small print in a newspaper. I doubt Hizbollah ever imagined they'd spark off such a horrific war. |
Again why ought israel not hit its mortal enemy with everything it has?
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| Also, you keep banging on about how Hizbollah exist only to annihilate the Jews. This is patent rubbish. |
Lets see what Hizzbollah has said:
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| "If Jews all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide." (NY Times, May 23, 2004, p. 15, section 2, column 1 |
Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah
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| If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, I do not say the Israeli. (New Yorker, Oct. 14, 2002) |
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| One of the central reasons for creating Hizbullah was to challenge the Zionist program in the region. Hizbullah still preserves this principle, and when an Egyptian journalist visited me after the liberation and asked me if the destruction of Israel and the liberation of Palestine and Jerusalem were Hizbullah's goal, I replied: "That is the principal objective of Hizbullah, and it is no less sacred than our [ultimate] goal. The generation that lived through the creation of this entity is still alive. This generation watches documentaries and reads documents that show that the land conquered was called Palestine, not Israel." We face an entity that conquered the land of another people, drove them out of their land, and committed horrendous massacres. As we see, this is an illegal state; it is a cancerous entity and the root of all the crises and wars and cannot be a factor in bringing about a true and just peace in this region. Therefore, we cannot acknowledge the existence of a state called Israel, not even far in the future, as some people have tried to suggest. Time does not cancel the legitimacy of the Palestinian claim. (Middle East Quarterly, Fall 2002). |
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| They began as a resistance to the horrible occupation of their land, and they may well have said all sorts of stuff about the Israelis at that time. You would too if they were in your backyard killing and maiming your people. When they'd rid themselves of their occupiers, they turned mostly to domestic matters, empowering the previously disadvantaged poor Shiite population within Lebanon. You talk as if they were plotting to invade Israel. This is patent nonsense. The Israelis were in no danger of being run by the Hizbollah (except perhaps in some peoples most fervent imaginings). |
They have continued to attack Israel. Why ought Israel accept this.
Nassaralh over and over again has said it is the goal of Hizzbollah to destroy israel.
Indeed Hizzbollah even blew a Jewish community center in Argentina. Was that an anti Israel attack or an anti Jewish attack?
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| But whatever, if you prefer the 'Israel is never to blame and the Arabs are all out to kill the Jews' line - then stick with that. |
[/quote]
No , all the Bathists , Khomeni followers and Bin Laden followers are out to destroy Israel and much more. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Violence is the hallmark of YOUNG MEN all over, not all people in general. If you look at the demographics, Palestine, Iran, these are nations predominantly made up of young men. A population with a disproportionately high number of young men will be disproportionately more violent than a more age-balanced population. Radical Islam legitimizes and cultivates their violent tendencies. |
I can agree with that, as long as we realize it is not a "fait accompli" but rather as we say, a "tendency" . Doesn't have to be, it is us who control as a community the conditions of these "young men'.
I would argue that it is those upstairs, the involved, that control and make others become commited and do the dirty work...
Much like that famous quote;
"The difference between involvement and commitment is like ham and eggs. The chicken is involved; the pig is committed."
I don't remember who said it but he probably was a general or CEO, a chicken. Not a grunt, certainly..... Those at the bottom are committed, few choices. Those at top involved but with options.
DD |
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Atassi
Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Location: 평택
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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While we're back on topic again, I see they have no comeback to the muslim killing of 80 million Hindus in India and Afghanistan.
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There you go again with your lies. I made the comeback, and you couldn't respond to it. You saying that 80 million Hindus died is like me saying that Stalin killed 80 million Muslims. It may have happened, but the number was not that high.
Even the source you quote does not say that 80 million "died". I'm beginning to think you like to lie.
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PS> there is both love and hate in all books. The qur'an and bible....but if you do want to read of the prophet's life , become knowing....here is a little primer online
http://www.islamway.com/mohammad/?lang=eng |
Thanks for the link DD. It is a well-written story book in English. Very interesting.
Dave wrote:
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| You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material that may violate any applicable laws. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned (and your service provider being informed). |
It's annoying to see hate on this forum. Want to read about name-calling, hate and some psychology? Yeolchae provides this link:
http://www.chomsky.info/debates/20060906.htm
Enjoy the read. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:19 am Post subject: |
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| Atassi wrote: |
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While we're back on topic again, I see they have no comeback to the muslim killing of 80 million Hindus in India and Afghanistan.
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There you go again with your lies. I made the comeback, and you couldn't respond to it. You saying that 80 million Hindus died is like me saying that Stalin killed 80 million Muslims. It may have happened, but the number was not that high. |
Ah..you took the bait. Its actually a huge genocide, spanning many countries and continuing to this day- the barbaric ethnic cleansing of non-muslims in Asia.
Lets just look at the situation right now- just a taster to begin with
THE HINDU GENOCIDE IN SOUTH ASIA
In secular and democratic India the first Hindu
Genocidal activites have been initiated in the state
of Jammu and Kashmir. Over Half a million Hindus have
been ethnically cleansed by terrorist Islamic groups.
Over 5000 Hindus have been murdered and many more
maimed for life. 3000 Sikhs were killed by political
operatives and goondas of the Congress party. In
Assam the Hindu along the bordering districts have
been kicked out by Muslim infiltration from
Bangladesh. The INDIAN STATE has laws which
discriminates against the Hindu. Hindu Institutions
are not tax exempt, Hindu temple property has been
confiscated and management taken over by the
Government where corruption has become rampant. Hindu
schools cannot impart religious teaching in India if
they get even a small subsidy according to article
30. Hindu leaders are insulted by the state
repeatedly and Hindu Organizations are banned or
prohibited to function freely. Advertisements to
Newspapers which carry Hindu point of view are
stopped. Jobs denied to persons working for Hindu
organizations. 100000 Hindus were imprisoned for 18
months for opposing GOVERNMENT SENSORSHIP autocratic
rules. An overall atmosphere of ANTI HINDU STATE
TERROR has been created.
Pakistan which had a Hindu population of over 23% in
1950 has rid itself of its Hindu population by its
policies and encouragement of HINDU GENOCIDE. Today
Islamic Republic of Pakistan has less than 1 % Hindus
who are living under fear. So far over 650 cases of
Temple destruction and attacks have been documented
since 1947 to 1993. Thousands of other Shaiva,
Vaishnav and Sikh temples, Gurudwaras in rural areas
have been systematically destroyed. By a conservative
estimate by the year 2010 any trace of Hindu culture
in Pakistan will be totally eliminated.
The Islamic Republic of Bangladesh which has over 15%
Hindus in 1993 is slowly encouraging and adopting
policies to assist its Muslim Fundamentalists to
continue the HINDU GENOCIDE. The silence by
secularists over this issue is frightening and
disgusting. Hindus who are made the guinea pigs of an
experiment called Secularism in India. In Bangladesh
the Secular Hound dogs have fed the rabid Islamic
Fundamentalists with the high protien diet of Hindu
flesh. Over the last 2 decades alone in Bangladesh
before Ayodhya over 300 Temples have been completely
destroyed. In the book "Hindu Temples What happened
to Them" by Arun Shourie and Sitaram Goel a partial
list of Destroyed Hindu temples is given.
http://www.hindunet.org/alt_hindu/1995_Jan/msg00113.html
Take a look at the figures of the Hindu population of India's Muslims neighbours: in 1941, in what would become Pakistan, there were approximately 25 per cent Hindus and 30 per cent in what would later become Bangladesh; in 1948, only 17 per cent in Pakistan and 25 per cent in Bangladesh; in 1991, a bare 1.5 per cent remained in Pakistan and less than 10 per cent in Bangladesh.
http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/apr/30franc.htm
Muslims killed 80 million hindus in 500 years
http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/30022
You're protecting a massively overgrown barbaric cult in the name of political correctness. |
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Atassi
Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Location: 평택
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| You're protecting a massively overgrown barbaric cult in the name of political correctness |
What the hell? Now I'm politically correct? In what country? Unfortunately, political correctness is closer to holding your views. I hold alternative views, and I search for truth.
Your choice of words is extremely political.
You skew facts every second. Intentionally making something bad sound worse is tantamount to lying (pray for forgiveness)
Your sources always suck.
Your religious fanaticism and hate for others is only serving to promote the ideas that oppose yours, but I would still rather you wouldn't bother. Can you be a good Christian for once? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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On July 24, as yet another sign of its looming failure in Lebanon, Israel deployed the first of thousands of cluster munitions against what it called "Hezbollah emplacements" in southern Lebanon. Cluster munitions are an effective, if vicious, combat tool and those nations that use them, including every single member of NATO (as well as Russia and China), have consistently refused to enter an international agreement banning their use.
The most responsible nation-states that use them, however, "double fuse" their munitions to cut down on the failure rate of the "bomblets" after they have been deployed. During the administration of US president Bill Clinton, defense secretary William Cohen agreed to the double-fusing of US cluster munitions and a phase-out of the "high dud rate" munitions in the US stockpile, which was intended to cut the failure rate of these munitions from 14% (some estimates are higher) to less than 3% (though some estimates are lower).
While investigations into Israel's use of these munitions is not yet complete, it now appears that the IDF deployed single-fused munitions. Recent reports in the Israeli press indicate that artillery officers carpeted dozens of Lebanese villages with the bomblets--as close to the definition of the "indiscriminate" use of firepower as one can get. |
http://www.counterpunch.com/crooke10132006.html |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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Israeli / US Cluster Bombs Litter Lebanon
Desirable Duds
By JAMES BROOKS
On September 26, the UN announced that the number of unexploded cluster "bomblets" left in southern Lebanon by Israeli forces may be three times higher than previous estimates. A million or more antipersonnel weapons may be strewn across a region one-third the size of Rhode Island.(1)
Israel has yet to respond to repeated requests for information about the locations of its cluster bomb strikes in Lebanon. UN demining experts say this has made their job 'far more difficult'.(2)
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Well over a million of these antipersonnel weapons were fired by highly accurate artillery batteries, frequently at targets that were civilian beyond a shadow of a doubt.(9)
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In the lexicon of cluster bombs, the "dud rate" is the percentage of deployed submunitions (bomblets) that fail to explode when deployed. Unexploded cluster bomblets continue to kill and maim innocent people, especially children, for decades. In effect, Israel has left a million small, soulless suicide bombers in south Lebanon, each awaiting its call to action.
The UN Mine Action Coordination Centre (UN-MACC) has documented and cleared cluster munitions in several theatres of war. Working with NGOs and the Lebanese Armed Forces in southern Lebanon, UN-MACC continues to report that approximately 40 percent of Israel's bomblets failed to explode.(11) An overall dud rate of 40 percent is unusually high. We will explore possible reasons for this reported poor performance of Israel's cluster munitions.
In terms of dud rates, two classes of cluster bombs are available on the market today: high dud rate and low dud rate. It appears the cluster munitions Israel used in Lebanon were predominantly, perhaps exclusively, of the 'high dud rate' variety.
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The peculiarity of Israel's timing becomes acute when we consider how few targets were left for all those cluster bombs to kill. By the final week of the war, most people in the target zone had evacuated to escape Israel's relentless bombing and shelling, which had erased several villages from the face of the earth. Hezbollah fighters should have been able to ride out Israel's cluster bombing waves in the safety of their bunkers. Nonetheless, the IDF must have made an all-out effort to deploy nearly three million bomblets within 72 hours, probably involving all units capable of delivering such devices. What were they shooting at?
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Simple math reveals the shocking truth: Innocent civilians were perhaps 200 times more likely than Hezbollah militants to be killed or maimed by Israel's region-wide cluster bombing. This basic statistic could not have been unknown to Israeli strategists.
To read entire article click here |
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Teufelswacht
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Location: Land Of The Not Quite Right
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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It looks like Israel wasn't the only one to employ cluster munitions during the war.
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JERUSALEM (AFP) - Hezbollah fired cluster munitions into northern Israel during this summer's 34-day war with the Jewish state, according to a Human Rights Watch (HRW) report.
"This is the first time that Hezbollah's use of these controversial weapons has been confirmed," the group said Thursday.
"We are disturbed to discover that not only Israel but also Hezbollah used cluster munitions in their recent conflict," the release quoted Steve Goose, director of HRW's arms division, as saying.
"Use of cluster munitions is never justified in civilian-populated areas because they are inaccurate and unreliable," HRW added.
There was no immediate reaction from the Shiite militant group.
Israel has been roundly criticized for its use of cluster bombs during the war with Hezbollah that began on July 12 and ended with a UN-brokered ceasefire on August 14.
According to Israel's liberal Haaretz newspaper, the Jewish state's military dropped more than 1.2 million cluster bomblets into Lebanon during the month-long conflict.
United Nations chief Kofi Annan has condemned Israel's use of cluster munitions, and the world body estimates that as many as 40 percent of the apple-sized bomblets fired into Lebanon failed to explode on impact.
The weapons have killed at least 21 people and wounded more than 100 others across southern Lebanon following the ceasefire.
Cluster munitions spread bomblets over a wide area from a single container. The bomblets often do not explode on impact, but can do so later at the slightest touch, making them similar to anti-personnel landmines.
HRW said that Hezbollah -- which launched nearly 4,000 rockets into Israel during the war -- had used Chinese-made Type-81 122 millimeter rockets, "the first confirmed use of this particular model of cluster munition anywhere in the world". |
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20061019/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflict |
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