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Leslie Cheswyck

Joined: 31 May 2003 Location: University of Western Chile
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Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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| Seems to me that those brave enough to fight Islamic Facism today are the same type that would have stood up to Christian Facism in the past..... |
The flaw I see in your analogy is that it 'seems to me that those brave enough to fight Islamic Fascism today are the same type that' want to impose their own brand of the 'f' word on us here in the West.
What you fail to see is that your position is at least as threatening to the traditions of the West as are the Moslem fanatics. Possibly more so. Ummm...no, let me amend that. Definitely more so. You were raised in the traditions of the West and have rejected the ideals of liberty and toleration. Your attitude is just too close for comfort to "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out".
If we throw out our Englightenment ideals for 'the duration' they won't just come back the day after victory is declared. We will have to go through the whole struggle again, and maybe we won't win the next time.
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I respectfully disagree. It depends on the country and what kind of political traditions there are to revive after the 'the duration'. During WWII Roosevelt (and Churchill) wielded enormous powers that flew in the face of the Enlightenment ideals. See my post here:
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?p=908236&highlight=#908236
Yet American democracy proceeded apace.
I'm not sure how many of these wartime powers Bush has or wants, but I venture to say his powers are considerably less and fewer than FDR's.
Further back, we have Lincoln. I know you have a firm grasp of American history, but this link is for all the punters out there:
http://www.sobran.com/columns/1999-2001/001212.shtml
Lincoln was infuriated. He sent informers to determine which members of the legislature were �disloyal� � i.e., opposed to war. On the night of September 12 he had federal troops arrest dozens of legislators and other prominent citizens (including the mayor of Baltimore and a Maryland congressman) he suspected of Southern sympathies. Since Lincoln had also suspended the right of habeas corpus, he claimed the power to arrest anyone arbitrarily, without specific charges and without a trial. When the chief justice of the United States, Roger Taney, had ruled that Lincoln had no constitutional power to do this, Lincoln had not only ignored the ruling but ordered Taney�s arrest too! (If he had gone through with this outrage, he might well have been impeached and removed from office.) |
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ddeubel

Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:28 am Post subject: |
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Leslie,
I very respectfully disagree......
Not on what you said. Very right that in those times, Lincoln, Roosevelt, had those powers..........
There is war and then there is "manufactured" war. NO disrespect to those affected by terrorism directly but it in no way compares . This is how Bush has duped the nation. Giving him such "wartime' powers, at present, is eroding America. When will it stop? You don't defeat this kind of enemy ever........it isn't war. That assumption is completely wrong and thus the premise of your retort.
DD
Now let's have everyone scream at me. So be it. This is not a war!!! I still go by what I posted a few weeks back -- declare victory, move on and start making America strong by protecting her basic values and focusing on the economy, the poor, jobs, housing, education and health -- not this side show of military masturbation.... |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:22 am Post subject: |
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| During WWII Roosevelt ... Further back, we have Lincoln. |
And is not each event worrisome?
Not to mention that both times the survival of the republic was genuinely threatened, unlike this time. This time the threat is from rightists within. |
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Leslie Cheswyck

Joined: 31 May 2003 Location: University of Western Chile
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Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:22 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
And is not each event worrisome? |
Indeed, they were. But if your premise is that somehow we must necessarily slip into some new Dark Age whenever a president exerts unusually augmented executive powers, then it is refuted by the two examples I have given. The question up for argument now is, are they necessary in this war? I'm not ready to say, but the issue could do with some examination. (A declaration of war might help.)
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
Not to mention that both times the survival of the republic was genuinely threatened, unlike this time. This time the threat is from rightists within. |
There is no 'American Taleban'. Maybe you'll find some evangelicals on a few schoolboards here, some Mormon polygamist strongholds there. Annoying, but that's really nothing to worry about.
Then there are the violent ones: the abortion clinic bombers, the Oklahoma City bomber, and the 'anti-gummint' types. Deadly, violent, and must be crushed mercilessly. But they can never bring down the republic.
Then again, maybe you're talking about neo-nazi skinheads and the like --- all of whom harbor the greatest of loathing for the Jews. A loathing they share with our Islamic nemesis. |
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flakfizer

Joined: 12 Nov 2004 Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm still waiting for Ya-ta to post a link where I can read about "christian fundamentlists" who want to force us all to adhere to the "code of Deuteronomy." I'm really curious about who this group is, how big they are and exactly what codes of Deuteronomy they wish to legislate. I'm sure Yata wasn't just making stuff up. |
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happeningthang

Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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Deuteronomy is the book in the bible where the ten commandments showed up, and is taken literally by some. I'm going to guess Ya-ta was making the point that chrsitians in the US and elsewhere aren't exactly shy in trying to make people conform to their idea of what's right.
Considering you had a US attorney general robing statues, people trying to bring back prayer and alternatives to evolution into schools, the campaigns of people to post the 10 commandments in public buildings, anti gay marriage lobbying, anti abortion lobbying, hysterical reactions to art exhibitions....
These christian fundamentalists are kind of numerous and organised, and their causes, or "codes" they'd like legislated aren't exactly unknown. |
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flakfizer

Joined: 12 Nov 2004 Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| happeningthang wrote: |
Deuteronomy is the book in the bible where the ten commandments showed up, and is taken literally by some.
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Oh, I know what Deuteronomy is. I also know the Ten Commandments. There's a lot more to Deuteronomy than just the Ten, but let's look at those. Are there really significant groups out there who want to make adultery a capital offense? Are there groups out there who want to make worshipping other gods a capital offense? Are there groups out there who want to make taking the Lord's name in vain a capital offense? I've heard of "christian fundamentlists" before, but I've heard no news of them forcing these laws upon us. |
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happeningthang

Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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*sigh*
I was just pointing out that, Ya-ta was saying, christians would like people to believe and follow what they believe and follow.
As to the details of what deuteronomy says, and the freaks who want to believe the world is 5,000 years old based on "bible science"....
I couldn't care less. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:11 am Post subject: |
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No could I, HT.
Though, I wouldn't toss aside those islamic types who want to take us back 5.000 years... |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:47 am Post subject: |
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From John Dean's 'Conservatives Without Conscience':
When I called Senator Goldwater I had only recently learned more about Chuck Colson�s involvement [with the litigation]. I asked the senator for his thoughts on Christian conservatives like Colson, and their increasing presence in Republican politics, and he minced no words. �Goddamn it, John,� he began, with a combination of anger, frustration, and sorrow, �the Republicans are selling their soul to win elections.� He saw trouble coming. �Mark my word,� he said, �if and when these preachers get control of the party, and they�re sure trying to do so, it�s going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. The government won�t work without it. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can�t and won�t compromise. I know, I�ve tried to deal with them.� He had absolutely no doubt that these people made Washington more divisive then it had ever been, and he was concerned that their divisiveness was spreading throughout the country. |
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flakfizer

Joined: 12 Nov 2004 Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:22 am Post subject: |
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| happeningthang wrote: |
*sigh*
I was just pointing out that, Ya-ta was saying, christians would like people to believe and follow what they believe and follow.
As to the details of what deuteronomy says, and the freaks who want to believe the world is 5,000 years old based on "bible science"....
I couldn't care less. |
Big deal. Liberals like people to believe what they do. Conservatives like people to believe what they do. In general, people like others to believe what they do. So what? Your last statement, meant to be a mere insult, is important nonetheless. You can take the "I couldn't care less" approach to these people precisely because they are not forcing you to follow the "code of Deuteronomy" (whatever that is). |
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happeningthang

Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:35 am Post subject: |
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| flakfizer wrote: |
| happeningthang wrote: |
*sigh*
I was just pointing out that, Ya-ta was saying, christians would like people to believe and follow what they believe and follow.
As to the details of what deuteronomy says, and the freaks who want to believe the world is 5,000 years old based on "bible science"....
I couldn't care less. |
Big deal. Liberals like people to believe what they do. Conservatives like people to believe what they do. In general, people like others to believe what they do. So what? Your last statement, meant to be a mere insult, is important nonetheless. You can take the "I couldn't care less" approach to these people precisely because they are not forcing you to follow the "code of Deuteronomy" (whatever that is). |
OMG you freak. Who are you talking to??
I was just trying to clarify something! I'm not arguing with you. I wasn't trying to insult you, I'm trying to tell you I'm not interested in the issue. |
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flakfizer

Joined: 12 Nov 2004 Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
From John Dean's 'Conservatives Without Conscience':
When I called Senator Goldwater I had only recently learned more about Chuck Colson�s involvement [with the litigation]. I asked the senator for his thoughts on Christian conservatives like Colson, and their increasing presence in Republican politics, and he minced no words. �Goddamn it, John,� he began, with a combination of anger, frustration, and sorrow, �the Republicans are selling their soul to win elections.� He saw trouble coming. �Mark my word,� he said, �if and when these preachers get control of the party, and they�re sure trying to do so, it�s going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. The government won�t work without it. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can�t and won�t compromise. I know, I�ve tried to deal with them.� He had absolutely no doubt that these people made Washington more divisive then it had ever been, and he was concerned that their divisiveness was spreading throughout the country. |
Wow. This blurb clearly shows that there is indeed a group that is trying to make us all live by Old Testament law. |
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flakfizer

Joined: 12 Nov 2004 Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:55 am Post subject: |
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| happeningthang wrote: |
| flakfizer wrote: |
| happeningthang wrote: |
*sigh*
I was just pointing out that, Ya-ta was saying, christians would like people to believe and follow what they believe and follow.
As to the details of what deuteronomy says, and the freaks who want to believe the world is 5,000 years old based on "bible science"....
I couldn't care less. |
Big deal. Liberals like people to believe what they do. Conservatives like people to believe what they do. In general, people like others to believe what they do. So what? Your last statement, meant to be a mere insult, is important nonetheless. You can take the "I couldn't care less" approach to these people precisely because they are not forcing you to follow the "code of Deuteronomy" (whatever that is). |
OMG you freak. Who are you talking to??
I was just trying to clarify something! I'm not arguing with you. I wasn't trying to insult you, I'm trying to tell you I'm not interested in the issue. |
What are you talking about? I never said you insulted me. I said that your insult showed that you can laugh these people off and not be overly concerned about them. |
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happeningthang

Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:30 am Post subject: |
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| oh ok |
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