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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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 Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:08 am Post subject: Re: re: |
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| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| They apply because your argument is invalid, given the inability to prove the non-existence of God. |
So if I claimed that Jesus cannot be the son of the tooth fairy because the tooth fairy does not exist you would call petitio principii, argumentum ad ignorantiam and argumentum ad logicam? Hah.
Best you stick to the faith side of things.
Peace. |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:19 am Post subject: Re: re: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| They apply because your argument is invalid, given the inability to prove the non-existence of God. |
So if I claimed that Jesus cannot be the son of the tooth fairy because the tooth fairy does not exist you would call petitio principii, argumentum ad ignorantiam and argumentum ad logicam? Hah.
Best you stick to the faith side of things.
Peace. |
What does the tooth fairy have to do with this? This is approaching straw man territory~
Peace |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:19 am Post subject: Re: re: |
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| double post |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:25 am Post subject: Re: re: |
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| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| What does the tooth fairy have to do with this? This is approaching straw man territory~ |
Can you disprove the existence of the tooth fairy? |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:28 am Post subject: |
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Being a member of the Christian faith, Islamic faith, or Buddhism requires the words I have added after the religions - faith. The Bible has been compared to ancient discovered texts and found to be strikingly similar. Of course, you can argue that there are interpretations that differ from group to group. Someone stated that someone transcribing something could have been tired. This could happen to any of the religious faiths. The TORAH was compiled over a very long time like a story with several parts. The Bible and Quran were compiled after the death of both of the individuals who preached their respected religions with the former being Jesus of Nazareth and Mohammed of Mecca.
You may not believe in the concept of the Trinity but someone may not believe in the concept of a Messiah that has not arrived or the idea that
Buddha had divine wisdom. Some say that the idea of Jesus as divine came with the Council of Nicaea in the Byzantine Empire. However, that idea obviously pre-existed the council for sometime. One can interpret divine in more than one way. It is interesting that some Sufis have a similar concept. There was a fellow named Al Hallaj who was executed by fellow Muslims because he stated "I am the truth" which means in a sense "I am God". Anyway, as long as we don't fire one another for our religious differences, then it's all cool in my book. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:34 am Post subject: Re: re: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| What does the tooth fairy have to do with this? This is approaching straw man territory~ |
Can you disprove the existence of the tooth fairy? |
Yes, I can disprove it. I know that adults give you gifts if you lose a tooth. It is common knowledge. It is not common, shared knowledge that a higher power or diety does not exist. The majority of people in the world believe in some kind of higher power. They have different names for that higher power whether it is Elohim, Allah, God, Dieu, Bog, Krishna. Of course, one can debate among those who believe in something higher than us as to why there should be only one God and not more than one God? Judaism, Christian, and Islam believe in one God. The Hindus do not. I am not sure if the Buddhists do. They seem to generally follow Buddha and can remind someone of liberal Christianity. It is interesting that Jesus came to a people who had different classes of people like the Cohens (priests) and the Levites and Budda came to a people who had Brahmins, Kshatriyas. Anyway, most of the people here believe in the divine, so they are debating the interpretation of the divine. You are stating the divine does not exist which is kind of out of the scope of the debate. |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:43 am Post subject: Re: re: |
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1. no, you didn't disprove the existence of the tooth fairy, and 2. just because lots of people believe something doesn't make it true. But I guess logic is of little importance when you can always jump back through the bolthole of 'faith'.
Anyway, I think it's great that these teens are rejecting Christianity. I call into question the morals of a group that seeks to indoctrinate children with lies and falsehoods. I'd say the same thing if it was young muslims rejecting Islam.
edit: (don't mind me, I'm just feeling especially atheist today. You can all go back to talking about the bible, p.s. there is/are no god(s)) |
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Atassi
Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Location: 평택
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:57 am Post subject: Re: re: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
1. no, you didn't disprove the existence of the tooth fairy, and 2. just because lots of people believe something doesn't make it true. But I guess logic is of little importance when you can always jump back through the bolthole of 'faith'.
Anyway, I think it's great that these teens are rejecting Christianity. I call into question the morals of a group that seeks to indoctrinate children with lies and falsehoods. I'd say the same thing if it was young muslims rejecting Islam. |
Gang ah jee, you are being logical in that just because many people believe something, that doesn't mean that what they believe is true. That's elementary.
There are many questions to life that we can't answer. We aren't capable of comprehending these things. We aren't capable of comprehending time for instance. When did it start? How did we come into being? Those who believe in God realize that there is something else out there that we don't know of or understand. How did this perfect balance that is our world come into existence, by chance?
The argument that there is a God is damn strong. On the other hand, the argument that there is a tooth fairy isn't even an argument. There is no comparing them.
Regards |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:07 am Post subject: Re: re: |
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| Atassi wrote: |
| The argument that there is a God is damn strong. On the other hand, the argument that there is a tooth fairy isn't even an argument. There is no comparing them. |
Who's arguing that there is a toothfairy? I'm just saying that you can't prove that there isn't, any more than you can't prove that there isn't a god. This was in the context of some nitpicking about logical fallacies with seoulunitarian.
Anyway, the argument that god exists is not 'damn strong' - if it were then religious types would not constantly be having to appeal to 'faith'. I'm happy to leave this here though - I have to get to bed. |
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Atassi
Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Location: 평택
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:14 am Post subject: Re: re: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| I'm just saying that you can't prove that there isn't, any more than you can't prove that there isn't a god. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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Atassi
Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Location: 평택
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:40 am Post subject: |
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Sad argument. |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: re: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| petitio principii, argumentum ad ignorantiam, argumentum ad logicam, vacuous implication - choose one or mix 'em all together. Admittedly, I am attacking the premise. Could the premise be proven, your argument would, of course, be valid. |
While I'd accept vacuous implication, the other fallacies obviously don't apply. If they did, how could my argument be valid, given the non-existence of god? |
argumentum ad ignorantium applies: the argument that a premise is false only because it has not been proven true.
petitio principii applies: the argument in which a proposition is used to prove itself.
Peace |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: re: |
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| seoulunitarian wrote: |
argumentum ad ignorantium applies: the argument that a premise is false only because it has not been proven true.
petitio principii applies: the argument in which a proposition is used to prove itself. |
Yeah, I took phil 101. So then, how do they apply to 'God does not exist, therefore Jesus cannot be the son of god'? Put another way, 'The toothfairy does not exist, therefore I cannot not the son of the toothfairy.'
Edit: anyway, I don't mean to hijack this thread. If you like, seoulunitarian, you can come over and argue for the existence of god in the  Atheism Appreciation Megathread!!! |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:22 pm Post subject: Re: re: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
argumentum ad ignorantium applies: the argument that a premise is false only because it has not been proven true.
petitio principii applies: the argument in which a proposition is used to prove itself. |
Yeah, I took phil 101. So then, how do they apply to 'God does not exist, therefore Jesus cannot be the son of god'? Put another way, 'The toothfairy does not exist, therefore I cannot not the son of the toothfairy.'
Edit: anyway, I don't mean to hijack this thread. If you like, seoulunitarian, you can come over and argue for the existence of god in the Atheism Appreciation Megathread!!! |
Cool sirens! How did you do that?
Peace |
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