Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Adventurer]

[thepeel]

You are totally missing my point.

I'm not saying that Americans are more in favour of immigration or that one cannot take German citizenship.

I have 2 central assumptions..

1) American identity is less intertwined with race/ethnicity and Europe more so. No absolutes, just tendencies.

2) Europeans do not accept outsiders, those who are not ethnically theirs, as theirs. You can never become German, ever. You can have a piece of paper saying your citizenship is German, but you are a "x" living in Germany.

1&2 make is easier (not easiest or easy) to assimilate into Yank society and accordingly, more difficult in Europe. This isn't a controversial position. In fact, it is the most common topic of conversation between myself, my American friends and my European muslim colleagues at school.

By the by, I would agree that Canadian is very much about being white. This became most clear to me when I discovered that non-white Canadians call whites "The Canadians", but seldom use the term for themselves (ie. I have Canadian citizenship not I am Canadian).

[happeningthang]

[thepeel]

I agree with your first paragraph for the most part. But, Oz, like America, is a nation of immigrants making it more like America and less like Europe.

What I mean by assimilation is two-fold. First, and most importantly, do you accept the 'host' (for lack of a better word) culture as your own and second does the host culture accept you as one of their own. The first is easier than the second, and it is the second that is really causing all my worries.

This (assimilation) ought to be independent of race or ethnicity but isn't. We all admit that it isn't. I think we all want colour not to matter but it does. Humans suck.

And it is because race/ethnicity are not separate from nationality and assimilation (in the eyes of either the host culture or the newcomer) is exactly why I've become so very skeptical of Western immigration policies (less Oz, actually).

[happeningthang]

Yeah, I can see that Australia would be grouped with the US in your theory.

I think the core of my disagreement with your perceptions is right about hereish...

[ddeubel]

[beck's]

Ethnic Europeans are in serious trouble. They are not reproducing themselves. Ethnic Europeans are an aging group. They are increasingly lacking the energy and will to defend and promote their culture. This applies to all western countries. Political correctness is just part of this. Westerners are often embarrassed to brag about the accomplishments of their culture.

Seems to me that an aging society cannot assimilate a vibrant and youthful immigrant one. I don't care whether it's in the banlieu of Paris or the suburbs of Toronto. It's just not going to happen. The demographics are against it.

We are in the early stages of the fall of the west.

[Ya-ta Boy]

[thepeel]

[happeningthang]

[thepeel]

Because I think Europeans are far more ethnic-minded and, well, racist than Oz, NZ, USA or Canada.

For example of things that often happen in Europe and never happen in the former British colonies anymore see this:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2002390000-2006470092,00.html

Okok, maybe that isn't fair. It is one of the more backwards euro states.

In Germany, the Turks (who were brought in a factory workers and we supposed to leave) are not accepted. Not at all. The form a totally parallel society. This is the case all over Europe. For reference, look at the Times article I posted at the beginning of this thread.

Europeans seldom like each other, why would we think they would welcome the very different muslims, North Africans and Asians?

[happeningthang]

Ummm....well, there are exclusionists in pretty much every society, but they usually comprise a small minority.

The skinhead and Nazi movements in Germany and Croatia are well known. That kind of thing does happen in Australia and the US as well, and these people are considered to be the vocal, not-that-bright minority where ever they may be. The Australian Nationalists, I mentioned before, the Arayan Brotherhood in the US these guys are committed to white exclusivity, and don't seem that different from their European counterparts.

I really don't know what life's like in Europe, and I hope to hear from some people who do to give this discussion more life than people trying to extropolate the character of a whole continent based on some newspaper articles.

[thepeel]

[Neil]

Not saying BJWD is wrong but I wouldn't lump all of Europe together.

I'm sure USA/Oz has regional differences but at the end of the day you all speak the same language, study the same history at school ect. So maybe it's easier to judge the general mood of the country.

With Europe on the other hand you have 30 odd countries all with different languages, cultures and a history of fighting each other.....some places are going to have different ideas about stuff.

Also I'd wager Liberal/Social democrat parties have more sucess in elections in Europe compared to elsewhere which doesn't give me the impression that there's lots of racist sentiment and whilst I have some sympathy for those who complain about immigration I wouldn't want to go down the road of Howard's Australia (which you cite as a good example of assimilating immigrants).

I'm rambling now but I'd say your point applies more to southern europe than the northern countries.

[happeningthang]

Well, Little Johnny Howard was still living with his mum when I was a kid (seriously, the guy didn't leave home until he got married). The multicultural Australia was championed by the Hawke/Keating years of the true believing Labour Party. It seemed to work at the time, and still does despite Howard's detention centres and general 'fortress australia' approach.