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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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 Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: re: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
argumentum ad ignorantium applies: the argument that a premise is false only because it has not been proven true.
petitio principii applies: the argument in which a proposition is used to prove itself. |
Yeah, I took phil 101. So then, how do they apply to 'God does not exist, therefore Jesus cannot be the son of god'? Put another way, 'The toothfairy does not exist, therefore I cannot not the son of the toothfairy.'
Edit: anyway, I don't mean to hijack this thread. If you like, seoulunitarian, you can come over and argue for the existence of god in the  Atheism Appreciation Megathread!!! |
They apply to your premise that God does not exist. They would also apply to my premise that God does exist. Arguments for or against God's existence can only go so far logically. If your premise was provable, then there would be no logical fallacy in your statement.
Peace |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: re: |
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| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| They apply to your premise that God does not exist. They would also apply to my premise that God does exist. Arguments for or against God's existence can only go so far logically. If your premise was provable, then there would be no logical fallacy in your statement. |
Ok, but no-one was arguing for or against the existence of god, and I even volunteered that I couldn't prove the non-existence of god ages ago. By your reasoning, any statement including reference to god is by definition a logical fallacy. That's not so.
Anyway, come over to the atheism thread. It's always good to have extra perspectives. |
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Nambucaveman
Joined: 03 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| What does the tooth fairy have to do with this? This is approaching straw man territory~ |
Can you disprove the existence of the tooth fairy? |
I am the tooth fairy! |
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Troll_Bait
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Moldy Rutabaga wrote: |
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| Another vital Christian doctrine is the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. But again, Mark gives us redactionary issues on the resurrection. The earliest manuscripts of Mark end with the discovery of the empty tomb in 16:8... The later verses were added to confirm an evolving belief in a resurrected Christ. |
Again, there are references to the resurrection in Acts and other apostolic works predating the gospels. As to why there are these changes in Mark's text we can only form guesses. There was a fellow on this forum a few months ago who argued quite angrily and strenuously that the early church did not believe in a resurrected Christ and that all references were later forgeries. I can only plead common sense; why in heaven's name (literally) would groups of people risk mutilation and death for someone who offered a nice lifestyle and not personal redemption?
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Red:
I hope that's not a reference to me, because I hope that I didn't come across as angry.  Maybe you're referring to hermes.trismegistus. Whatever one might think about hermes, he(she?) knows his stuff.
I did get annoyed by the fact that some people wouldn't even consider the possibility. I know that it's extremely difficult to prove the something doesn't exist, and even more difficult to prove that something didn't exist. But to discount the possibility out of hand struck me as either incredible closed-mindedness or smacked of having an agenda. Here's a quote from a site about evangelizing Christianity:
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Talk About Jesus, Not Religion
As you go you will meet people of different faiths: Buddhist, Hindus, Muslims, and Jews. Most people are turned off when you try to convert them to a denomination or church. Just ask them if you can talk about the historical figure of Jesus. As you share the story of his life, his works, and his death, hopefully, they will naturally open their heart to Him. (Thanks to Todd Robinson and for the above insight.) |
Talking about the historical Jesus has become the "getting your foot in the door" strategy for evangelists, so raising the possibility that He never existed, historically, completely short-circuits the proselytizing process, so maybe that's why evangelists get so apoplectic about it.
Green:
Just because people are willing to die for their beliefs does not, in any way, "prove" that those beliefs are valid.
The members of the Heaven's Gate cult died for their beliefs. Should we all commit suicide the next time a comet passes by so as to hitch a ride to Heaven?
The followers of Jim Jones all commited suicide at his command. Should we all drink poisoned Kool-aid the next time someone claiming to be the Second Coming of Jesus tells us to?
David Koresh's Branch Davidian cult took up arms, fought their government, and died for their beliefs. Should we all do the same?
And I'm sure you've heard of the Raelians. A Canadian journalist went under cover and joined the group. He discovered that the members are willing to die for their leader.
So dying for one's beliefs does not, in any way, prove them to be valid. I think that there are some good aspects of religion, but one of the bad ones is that it makes people do irrational things, such as throwing away their precious gift of life. |
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Moldy Rutabaga
Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Location: Ansan, Korea
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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No, no, I did mean hermes; I just didn't want to stir things up by offending him, if he still reads here; and yes, he's a mean debater, even if I don't agree with his conclusions.
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| Just because people are willing to die for their beliefs does not, in any way, "prove" that those beliefs are valid. |
Of course-- I can die for a poached egg, but it proves nothing! My point was not clear. What I was arguing is that early Christians did believe that Christ had been resurrected. This has nothing to do with whether or not it's true (although I believe so). I was replying to statements that belief in Christ's resurrection was a later addition by church fathers.
Ken:> |
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Troll_Bait
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Agreed. That's one thing that The DaVinci Code was completely inaccurate about. The Council of Nicea was not about debating Jesus' divinity, but about whether or not Jesus and God were two different entitites, or two aspects of the same entity. |
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luvnpeas
Joined: 03 Aug 2006
Location: somewhere i have never travelled
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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Can you prove there isn't a pink elf living on another planet with the power to make itself invisible to telescopes?
No.
Should you believe such a being is non-existant? Of course.
Substitute "god" for "pink elf."
Believing there is no god can be proper regardless of whether it can be proven. If there is little to no evidence to support a position, there is no reason to believe it. Yet, "little or no evidence" isn't the same as disproof. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| luvnpeas wrote: |
Can you prove there isn't a pink elf living on another planet with the power to make itself invisible to telescopes?
No.
Should you believe such a being is non-existant? Of course.
Substitute "god" for "pink elf."
Believing there is no god can be proper regardless of whether it can be proven. If there is little to no evidence to support a position, there is no reason to believe it. Yet, "little or no evidence" isn't the same as disproof. |
Actually I do believe there's a pink elf on another planet that can make itself invisible, but that's besides the point:
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=39522 |
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