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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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 Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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BJWD wrote:
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| and of our culture pandering to grown men who wear PJ's all day. |
Man, you and Ddeubel were really made for each other. Your styles synchronize perfectly.
DD: Those redneck Bush supporters sit around spittin' tobacco all day!
BJWD: Yeah, well at least they don't wear clothes that look like sleepwear!
DD: Ho ho! Where did you read that, the Wal-Mart catalogue?
Yep, sometimes the enlightenement gets so profuse around here, you need to wear sunglasses. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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Wow. Good point.
People will find anything in to nitpick as long as they don't have to actually talk about muslim violence. ANYthing but the topic of their very evident violent behaviour. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:25 am Post subject: |
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| Ddeubel: you are talking about controlling the press: suppressing info that does not lead to the right ideological outcome; promoting info that does. We do not do that in most if not all of the Western nations, however. What you are asking for is a kind of statism that has really only existed in Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, and a few other unique times and places. |
Gopher , please reread my post or change your brain's incoming frequency.....never said such a thing.
What I said is we have to stop parading out all these little stories....meaning, not tell the press they can't print them but rather, stop thinking they are a great big deal.
I can also find on any given day, stories of Christians chastising Muslims for something they did. In fact probably every minute. Still it is a minority of Christians, fringe. We do a disservice building them up into tin monsters and making all the faith seem such. Should I say all ministers want to dink little boys??? NO. But we seem to run with opposite stereotypes very quick. We shouldn't and should shout these stories down as NOT being reflective.
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| If we are going to speak of communications difficulties and misunderstandings, indeed, of one side wounding the other, then let's be sure we are keeping all of our readers here informed: Muslims, Arabs, Iranians, Pakistanis, and other Middle Easterners essentialize and malign the United States ("the Great Satan") and "the West" (their oppressor) at least as much as some Americans and Europeans essentialize and malign them. Even Said has said as much. |
Very much agree and glad that you have read some of his fine and very tolerant work.
So with your ending....
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| Or do you think it is exclusively a problem that the West has caused and only the West needs to work on...? |
I also concurr. Though not to blurr anything I will state. I know the west more, thus criticize her more. I have a vested interest so to speak. Also, don't know of many Muslim armies in Christian states other than Darfur but that is another matter. .....
DD |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| If I published a book today that is as blatantly hate-filled and violent as the major islamic texts, i would be put in jail for hate-crimes and incitement to violence. My name would be dragged through the mud as a supremacist and misogynist. That is a fact. |
Or is it? dd?
I only can guess at the intent behind this question. Rather than guess, I will just answer it directly, deal with it on face value.
You might and might not be. And that goes for many Muslim as well as Western nations. Formally, ie. by law or informally by self - censor (which is by far the larger category of the two and by which much press, West or Oriental, censors.).
This is not a gross issue but one which deals with individual levels of tolerance. For example, the U.S. is thought to have very free and liberal laws. But your book , in the example above would likely be knocked down by law or press house censor there but very well could be published in Canada. That book could very well be printed in some Islamic countries but others maybe not.
So please don't once again -- be simple. Your lesson of morality doesn't work, your - we are holy and they are unholy, is just a white sheet thrown over yourself in a rush. Not the real thing.
You should read the Qu'ran....Here is a good online version.
http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/HolKora.html
Or the online version of Muhammed that I posted previously.
Let me be frank. You espouse atheism but act just like religious authorites -- with exclusionism. This is their and your MO. They can only survive with an outside infidel, heretic. They can only survive and create and identity by exclusion....you too with your rhetoric.
DD
DD |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:11 am Post subject: |
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no point in talkin of this anymore.
Last edited by thepeel on Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:31 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Gopher"]
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| I suppose Mohatma Ghandi was anti-British...When Jonathon Swift... |
Now you and the rest of the antiBush mob are Ghandi and Jonathan Swift, and they and you are speaking "for humanity"? 
Do I speak for humanity? Ghandi never stated he did; I am not Ghandi. Ghandi and Swift were against imperial exploitation of indigenous people. That could have been stated as being anti-Britannia as you stated the criticism of the U.S. policies in the region as anti-Americanism. You stifle discussion in that manner.
As far as Ghandi, I do admire him. He stated "I am a Muslim, Christian, Hindu, and a Jew". And I state that I believe in bridges of humanity and that people essentially have enough goodness to bring together. If that position is not moral, so be it. You stated that the majority of Muslims in the U.S. are not quality people as Ddeubel seem to indicate. Based on what do you make such an assumption is what I am asking. If this is not what you were saying, then state that, and I would be more than happy to say that I misunderstood you.
You class anti-war people with anti-government people. That is reductionist. If someone opposes a particular war, it does not mean they are against the institutions of government. Patrick Buchanan opposed this war and three after the commencement of hostilities, 61% of the American people agree with that position.
Frankly, I care little about your position. You do little more than recite Said's list of Arab wounds suffered by evil Westerners, the United States, and also, in Said's case, Bernard Lewis personally. I only note that you have no tolerance for a discussion that references others' imperfections without (no surprise on this board, and especially no surprise coming from you, a Canadian, no?) forcing the discussion to recenter on U.S. faults and imperfections. Is that not, after all, where you see each and every fault residing in all of human affairs, indeed, in all human history?
[ I could say the same about your position. But I believe in date rather than ad-hominem attacks against you. I did not once say the American people, the British people. You appeared, at least from what I read, to generalize Muslims. Now you appear to engage in an attacking and saying "it is no surprise you are a Canadian". You claimed I do not stand with moral people like Ghandi, and I did not. Now, you act as if I speak for Canadians by this statement. That is not fair. If you bring up Said without showing where he is wrong, it is like saying that I am right, because I say I am. That is not debating, bro.
And you are clearly an Arab apologist. Make all of the disclaimers that you want, protest against this all you like...this is what you are doing on this thread, however.
[ This is an ad-hominem attack. I am an apologist for what? I am stating that the hostility felt in the region has merit. You are stating it is without basis or merit and comes from some irrational hatred.
Not that I agree with those who constantly attack Arabs and Islam here -- and I do not. It is just that, on the other side of the coin, there is no shortage of those, like you, who are all too willing to sympathize with the Arabs as passive victims of a racist, oppressive West (and especially the United States).
[ Clarify by what you mean passive victims of racism? If you are not label most Muslims in a certain way, than we misunderstand one another.
Also, I see no real refutation of the point I raised, only an attempt to undermine it by changing the subject.
[I refusted; you did not listen. I stated that you are ignoring cause and effect and the past hostile actions towards the region. The Arabs are clearly discriminated against when Bush appoints Daniel Pipes to a peace think tank despite the objections of moderate Arabs, Jews, and the fact that he believes Israel should pulverize the Arabs and than negotiate.
By the way, former Israeli Prime Minister Shlomo Ben Ami stated that Arabs are major victims of prejudice. Shlomo Ben Ami is not an Arab apologist?
Correction I am unhappy with Bush the Administration and current government. The Bush administration is not the U.S. I did have problems with Clinton, but he was much better. By the way, Patrick Buchanan believes that policies in the Middle East have been counterproductive; he is not against the United States. America has long been my home.
I am disagreeing with your point-of-view. I have nothing against you, but I don't think you should generalize any people in that way. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
Let me be frank. You espouse atheism but act just like religious authorites -- with exclusionism. This is their and your MO. They can only survive with an outside infidel, heretic. They can only survive and create and identity by exclusion....you too with your rhetoric.
DD
DD |
I think we should close this thread. I have only good will to those here. We are all teachers. I believe in healing the breach, trying to listen to other peoples and how they perceive things.
DDeubel, I agree with you that it is hypocritical to speak of the violent tone of many passages of the Quran and ignore the violent tone found in the Old Testament and the Hindu Veddas. If anyone read Deuterotemy one can read of Joshua killing all the civilians except a prostitute who was his spy, and he stated God told him to do it. Does that mean I think your average God-believing-Jew is reflected in Deuterotemy? No. Could some violent passages influence some very religious Jews? Yes, and it does.
Can some of the violent parts of the Veddas influence right wing BJP Hindus? Yes. The same applies to Muslims. Has the Muslim world reached the Enlightenment that brought us the Bill of Rights or Charter of Freedoms? Not yet. I think we need to be judicious rather than juding other nations wholesale. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:46 am Post subject: |
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Adventurer, haven't you got it into your thick head yet that you are merely a sneering snarling ranting anti-American anti-Western irrational hysterical loony-lefty propaganda-spewing member of the let's-lynch-Bush mob? You are not capable of rational thought, your motivations are childishly transparent, and any opinion with which Gopher does not concur can not be regarded as a valid one.
Dear me, lad, when will you learn?  |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| well i know this much: he needs to improve his quote function skills. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| ddeubel wrote: |
Let me be frank. You espouse atheism but act just like religious authorites -- with exclusionism. This is their and your MO. They can only survive with an outside infidel, heretic. They can only survive and create and identity by exclusion....you too with your rhetoric.
DD
DD |
I think we should close this thread. I have only good will to those here. We are all teachers. I believe in healing the breach, trying to listen to other peoples and how they perceive things.
DDeubel, I agree with you that it is hypocritical to speak of the violent tone of many passages of the Quran and ignore the violent tone found in the Old Testament and the Hindu Veddas. |
Hypocritical? I think you ought to revisit that word.
By your logic, it is "hypocritical" to speak of how rotten apples don't taste good while at the same time "ignoring" that rotten bananas don't taste good either.
(just a guess, but, you are fresh out of uni... right?) |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| ddeubel wrote: |
Let me be frank. You espouse atheism but act just like religious authorites -- with exclusionism. This is their and your MO. They can only survive with an outside infidel, heretic. They can only survive and create and identity by exclusion....you too with your rhetoric.
DD
DD |
I think we should close this thread. I have only good will to those here. We are all teachers. I believe in healing the breach, trying to listen to other peoples and how they perceive things.
DDeubel, I agree with you that it is hypocritical to speak of the violent tone of many passages of the Quran and ignore the violent tone found in the Old Testament and the Hindu Veddas. |
Hypocritical? I think you ought to revisit that word.
By your logic, it is "hypocritical" to speak of how rotten apples don't taste good while at the same time "ignoring" that rotten bananas don't taste good either.
(just a guess, but, you are fresh out of uni... right?) |
Are you fresh out of university. I suppose as as fresh as a wine produced long ago is in relation to being picked from field. I am saying that with sarcasm, because such a statement basically says "I think many college graduates do not know the world, and I don't think you do." Let us back away from ad-hominem attacks. I resort to debating the points. I give you that decency; I suggest the same.
Don't take it personally if I said it is hypocritical to look at violent passages in only one religion. I just stated that, yes, many Muslims are using violence to deal with their angst, and they view their religion backs them up. The same can be done with more than one religious book. You have to look at the culture of the people, history, and not simply a religious book. By the way, many right wing Hindus are inspired by some violent ideas from the Veddas. But, I still believe there are so many redeeming qualities about Hindus and Hinduism. That is my point.
Thank you... |
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Smee
Joined: 24 Dec 2004
Location: Jeollanam-do
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:22 am Post subject: |
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| What really makes me angry is that under the guise of news about Apple (which we all love), a blatant flat-out lie was perpetuated. The reality of the matter was that it was a random post on a random website, without a single supporting name or organization to reflect the �muslim community�s outrage.� The MEMRI article did not even link to, nor identify, the Arabic news source it was supposed to be citing or translating! |
Meaning, there is too much of this happening. People post things, print things about Muslims and pretend it is legit, across the Muslim community. When it isn't. Simply can't be. That community is to diverse.
Pathetic all those screaming about this and that Muslim wrongdoing, when in fact, in the name of cultural relativism, the opposite should be true.
DD |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| So the answer is yes, then, eh? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| By your logic, it is "hypocritical" to speak of how rotten apples don't taste good while at the same time "ignoring" that rotten bananas don't taste good either. |
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