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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
big bird struggles when she comes upon intelligent, articulate, relatively neutral parties such as yourself (and excluding moi). |
neutral? I've never known Kuros to be neutral. Perhaps when people's views overlap with your own, you consider them 'relatively neutral.' Surely you realise that no-one on this board is neutral. |
hence the word "relatively." |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
big bird struggles when she comes upon intelligent, articulate, relatively neutral parties such as yourself (and excluding moi). |
neutral? I've never known Kuros to be neutral. Perhaps when people's views overlap with your own, you consider them 'relatively neutral.' Surely you realise that no-one on this board is neutral. |
hence the word "relatively." |
And hence my point that his 'neutralness' was 'relative' to your own viewpoint. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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BB,
Actually, you were somewhat right this entire time. Apparently in Afghanistan, an Al-Jazeera station was bombed. The Guardian link did not state this. But instead of linking to that, you had to bicker with me and insult my reading skills and my intelligence. I get the sense that you prefer provocation and insult to actual discussion.
Adventurer,
Thanks for the link. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
BB,
But instead of linking to that, you had to bicker with me and insult my reading skills and my intelligence. I get the sense that you prefer provocation and insult to actual discussion.
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I was of the impression that it was you who wanted to bicker.
| Kuros wrote: |
I don't like Bush, but something about you, BB, propels me to defend the man.
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I'm quite happy to discuss things amicably with you, if you that's how you choose to operate. The pettiness on these threads can be very tiresome.
I wasn't actually taking a potshot at your reading skills, rather your need at that point to state something entirely obvious. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
BB,
I get the sense that you prefer provocation and insult to actual discussion.
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yeah, i wrote a little blurb about this last night but I was slightly intoxicated and thought I should sober up.
Basically the gist was: Big Bird, it really doesn't matter if you're 100% correct . The way you present your argument and treat others turns them off and makes them block out what you're saying.
I mean that as constructive criticism and acknowledge I have opened up myself to being accused of hypocriscy. I certainly am guilty at throwing out petty insults. And who knows, this is merely a message board; perhaps you present yourself different in the "real world" or just discuss/debate and little else. If that's the case, then nevermind... |
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Atassi
Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Location: 평택
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| I mean that as constructive criticism and acknowledge I have opened up myself to being accused of hypocriscy. I certainly am guilty at throwing out petty insults. And who knows, this is merely a message board; perhaps you present yourself different in the "real world" or just discuss/debate and little else. If that's the case, then nevermind... |
 Alright everyone, group hug and make up  |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
BB,
I get the sense that you prefer provocation and insult to actual discussion.
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yeah, i wrote a little blurb about this last night but I was slightly intoxicated and thought I should sober up.
Basically the gist was: Big Bird, it really doesn't matter if you're 100% correct . The way you present your argument and treat others turns them off and makes them block out what you're saying.
I mean that as constructive criticism and acknowledge I have opened up myself to being accused of hypocriscy. I certainly am guilty at throwing out petty insults. And who knows, this is merely a message board; perhaps you present yourself different in the "real world" or just discuss/debate and little else. If that's the case, then nevermind... |
It's very much a case of the kettle being lectured to by the pot here....but don't concern yourself, I certainly don't come here to make friends.
There are quite a few other regular inhabitants of this forum whom you might also like to lecture, but perhaps their 'relative neutralness' has obscured them from your gaze?  |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Can't we all get along? I said that without any reason. Do you all remember when Al Jazeera was reporting on the elections and people didn't want them around? What do you think is good about Al jazeera? What do you think is bad about it? I will give my opinion aftewards. |
Al Jazeera seems to me to be a better news outlet than most in the ME. But I know little about the ME. If Bush ordered the bombing of Al Jazeera, if he more than considered it and put it into action, Big Bird is right to get worked up. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| ...in Afghanistan, an Al-Jazeera station was bombed... |
Kuros, how about a clarification?
At least one Al-Jazeera station was bombed by, I believe, U.S. forces (if not U.S., then British -- either way, same ultimate command structure). We have known this for over a year, however.
The allegation is that W. Bush ordered this.
The White House denied it. Some evidence suggests, however, that W. Bush talked about doing it.
This notwithstanding, I have yet to see confirmation or any substantive evidence at all that he ordered it, that planes went up subsequent to this order, or whatever other means he chosed, and these means actually executed his order.
People who are inclined to believe that W. Bush always lies and always acts in bad faith all the time, on each and every issue in domestic and world affairs (and I do not share this belief) cite other things like "weapons of mass destruction" to make their case.
But there have been other such accidents, like the Clinton Administration and the Chinese embassy, which, at the time, was treated with the same cynicism (and accusations of lying).
I also know for a fact (because our govt, Kuros, declassifies and publishes secret dox while nearly every other on the planet does not, thus keeping all kinds of secrets on what they and individual leaders have thought, planned, and perhaps even ordered throughout recent history) that the U.S. govt regularly considers all kinds of contingencies.
This does not mean we should hold the govt guilty for this.
We should hold the govt accountable for what it actually does. And, the bottom line, I have seen no evidence whatsoever presented to back up the claim that W. Bush did this on purpose (his probable angry suggestion or comment notwithstanding).
I think this is something that needs to be clarified and taken out of the realm of circumstantial speculation before declaring our cantankerous friend "right," particularly in that she is alleging that now everything is finally "cleared up" in the OP... |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
There are quite a few other regular inhabitants of this forum whom you might also like to lecture, but perhaps their 'relative neutralness' has obscured them from your gaze? |
I'm sure you're refering to gopher as one of them but a) there are just a couple people he singles out (you should feel honored I suppose b) I have criticised him a couple times for reading too much into things.
As for any others, perhaps you're right..
Edit: after reading another thread (the israel/hizballah war thread) i was reminded that a few weeks ago I gave junior nearly the exact same "lecture"- as you call it- that I gave to you on this thread. I'm pretty sure I've done it with a couple others as well... thanks for the advice anyway. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| Can't we all get along? I said that without any reason. Do you all remember when Al Jazeera was reporting on the elections and people didn't want them around? What do you think is good about Al jazeera? What do you think is bad about it? I will give my opinion aftewards. |
Al Jazeera seems to me to be a better news outlet than most in the ME. But I know little about the ME. If Bush ordered the bombing of Al Jazeera, if he more than considered it and put it into action, Big Bird is right to get worked up. |
The Middle East has many networks. The ones I've heard of are MBC, LBC, Abu Dhabi, and Al jazeera. Al jazeera attempts at gaining some balance, but sometimes they are too sensationalist. However, they are not a mouth piece of their government - Qatar, not that they criticize Qatar, in earnest. It is better for the Middle East to have Al jazeera than not to have it. For example, Al jazeera had a Syrian American on the show one time who was not a Muslim, though she was Muslim by birth. She was an atheist, I believe. When was the last time you've seen an American atheist discussing their beliefs on American television? I don't recall that. That promotes diversity. What she said was translated on the MEMRI site. Of course, the network infuriated the U.S. when it showed the bodies of Iraqi, Palestinian, or Afghan victims etc... They did show some images they shouldn't have, in my opinion. Al jazeera shows too much, the American media shows too little when it comes to the suffering down there. I do have some serious issues with Al jazeera, but I also have issues with Fox and CNN. Al jazeera was bombed twice. They were bombed once in Afghanistan and once in Iraq. Again, contemplating bombing Al jazeera is like someone thinking it is okay to contemplate Fox because they are hostile to their viewpoint. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:05 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| ...in Afghanistan, an Al-Jazeera station was bombed... |
Kuros, how about a clarification?
At least one Al-Jazeera station was bombed by, I believe, U.S. forces (if not U.S., then British -- either way, same ultimate command structure). We have known this for over a year, however.
The allegation is that W. Bush ordered this.
The White House denied it. Some evidence suggests, however, that W. Bush talked about doing it.
This notwithstanding, I have yet to see confirmation or any substantive evidence at all that he ordered it, that planes went up subsequent to this order, or whatever other means he chosed, and these means actually executed his order.
People who are inclined to believe that W. Bush always lies and always acts in bad faith all the time, on each and every issue in domestic and world affairs (and I do not share this belief) cite other things like "weapons of mass destruction" to make their case.
But there have been other such accidents, like the Clinton Administration and the Chinese embassy, which, at the time, was treated with the same cynicism (and accusations of lying).
I also know for a fact (because our govt, Kuros, declassifies and publishes secret dox while nearly every other on the planet does not, thus keeping all kinds of secrets on what they and individual leaders have thought, planned, and perhaps even ordered throughout recent history) that the U.S. govt regularly considers all kinds of contingencies.
This does not mean we should hold the govt guilty for this.
We should hold the govt accountable for what it actually does. And, the bottom line, I have seen no evidence whatsoever presented to back up the claim that W. Bush did this on purpose (his probable angry suggestion or comment notwithstanding).
I think this is something that needs to be clarified and taken out of the realm of circumstantial speculation before declaring our cantankerous friend "right," particularly in that she is alleging that now everything is finally "cleared up" in the OP... |
I'm not trying to suggest she was right, but just that I was confused earlier, and that her position, that she wants to know the details but she doesn't know if Bush is guilty or not, seemed justified after reflection. That doesn't mean she's right on the entire issue, but that concerning what we two were tussling about, she was at least justified, and I was less than so. Because I had been under the impression that no Al Jazeera facility had been attacked by the US, purposefully or accidentally, and that Bush was being criticized for merely suggesting attacking an Al Jazeera station.
If Bush hadn't been playing fast and carelessly with detention policy, wire-tapping, singing statements, and even his rhetoric, I'd be more forceful. As it is, I'm tired of defending the man by saying, 'Nah, he'd never do that,' so I'm retiring from the field. On the other side, certainly there are some whack-jobs on here that believe the Bush administration engineered 9-11, but generally I think very few posters are sympathetic to this viewpoint. As it is, I'll wait and see like all the rest of us.
| Adventurer wrote: |
| The Middle East has many networks. The ones I've heard of are MBC, LBC, Abu Dhabi, and Al jazeera. Al jazeera attempts at gaining some balance, but sometimes they are too sensationalist. However, they are not a mouth piece of their government - Qatar, not that they criticize Qatar, in earnest. It is better for the Middle East to have Al jazeera than not to have it. For example, Al jazeera had a Syrian American on the show one time who was not a Muslim, though she was Muslim by birth. She was an atheist, I believe. When was the last time you've seen an American atheist discussing their beliefs on American television? I don't recall that. That promotes diversity. What she said was translated on the MEMRI site. Of course, the network infuriated the U.S. when it showed the bodies of Iraqi, Palestinian, or Afghan victims etc... They did show some images they shouldn't have, in my opinion. Al jazeera shows too much, the American media shows too little when it comes to the suffering down there. I do have some serious issues with Al jazeera, but I also have issues with Fox and CNN. Al jazeera was bombed twice. They were bombed once in Afghanistan and once in Iraq. Again, contemplating bombing Al jazeera is like someone thinking it is okay to contemplate Fox because they are hostile to their viewpoint. |
I think thats about right, Adventurer. Except, Bush is allowed to contemplate it as long as he doesn't actually do it. My impression was that Al Jazeera would actually show opposing viewpoints, like the American athiest example you presented, but that other Arab networks don't do a good job of this, but I'm just not sure. I, too, have issues with Fox, but as for CNN, I think it gets a bad rap because it tries to present two sides and gets trapped in its own dichotomies, but I also think people dislike it because its simply a little asinine. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:47 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
There are quite a few other regular inhabitants of this forum whom you might also like to lecture, but perhaps their 'relative neutralness' has obscured them from your gaze? |
I'm sure you're refering to gopher as one of them but a) there are just a couple people he singles out (you should feel honored I suppose b) I have criticised him a couple times for reading too much into things. |
Well Gopher gets a little too obsessive and personal with other posters on the board, instead of just debating issues, but funnily he wasn't the first to come to mind when I wrote that. There are others more thuggish and vulgar to boot. One thing about Mr G though is that he is probably the only poster here who regularly makes me conscious of my gender. That's because, in the language of the common man, he always seems to be trying to drag me into the equivalent of a 'male pissing contest' which, from my female point of view, is rather tiresome and downright silly.
I have to say I was rather amused that the first entries made by both you and Kuros on this thread were seeking some kind of confrontation with me - and yet you were the 2 who both complained when I paid you in kind...I thought we girls were supposed to be the fickle and sensitive sex! |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
I'm not trying to suggest she was right, but just that I was confused earlier, and that her position, that she wants to know the details but she doesn't know if Bush is guilty or not, seemed justified after reflection. That doesn't mean she's right on the entire issue, but that concerning what we two were tussling about, she was at least justified, and I was less than so. Because I had been under the impression that no Al Jazeera facility had been attacked by the US, purposefully or accidentally, and that Bush was being criticized for merely suggesting attacking an Al Jazeera station.
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Well at least you can be somewhat gracious, and that's something I quite respect. I've also enjoyed reading your thoughtful comments in your more recent posts.
My only real beef with you has been that I thought you were throwing the label of 'anti-semitism' around like water, and cheapening what is in fact a very grave charge. Millions of human beings have died because of that terrible form of racism, aside from the many others who have suffered miserably. It seems very wrong to confuse criticism of Israel's terrible policies towards Arabs with anti-semitism (although I'm well aware that is what the Israeli government encourages the American public to do). And it was partly with you in mind that I started the following thread:
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=67786 I just wanted you to reflect on it a bit. Other than that, I have no problem with you. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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An apology to Kuros
I'm very sorry Kuros, it seems there has been a case of mistaken identity. I went back to look at the thread where I thought you'd been accusing critics of Israel of being anti-semitic, and in fact I've got you totally confused with another poster. Your contributions to that thread were quite fair, and perhaps I must have scrolled down from you to another post, and not registered that the author had changed. 
I'm very sorry for that! |
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