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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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PEIGUY
Joined: 28 Mar 2004
Location: Omokgyo
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 Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| Octavius Hite wrote: |
Rae is a twit and will never be PM cause nobody in Ontario will ever vote for him.
He has kept his word for the most part, unlike the Fiblerals, who lied like dogs all the time. As for the gay marriage, since I plan on getting one sometime, he knows he will lose the vote (even if he did win the vote the SC would overturn it, thank god!) but he is going to hold it to keep the wingnutters happy, smart play. |
Those are the points I agree with. He's managed to do more with a minority than Paul Martin did with his. He's a no BS type of guy, while that can harm him in some ways he knows what has to get done and he gets it done. In terms of wingnutters, they just kicked one out cacaus who's from Ontario. Every party has them maybe the Conservatives have a bit too many. In all my years of following politics he's done the most things in the shortest amount of time. Some of it good some of it bad but people elected him knowing what his priorities are and he's doing them. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:16 am Post subject: |
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| Alias wrote: |
| Little to know chance that the Conservatives will form a majority in the next election. Latest poll shows them tied nationally with the Liberals. Liberals are leading in Ontario and the Conservatives have nose dived into Quebec in large part to their hawkish foreign policy. |
In Quebec, they are not enthusiastic about Afghanistan. Also, they are not ones to play down Israel's bombing of Lebanon, especially since they have a large left-leaning population and a large Lebanese population. They would suspect that he is influenced by right-wing Christian Protestant thinking and for liberal Catholics that does not take their fancy. C'est simplement epouvantable pour les Quebecois.
I believe Quebecers also want affordable day care. Their honeymoon with the Conservatives will not last. I think the corruption of the Liberals is better than the corruption of ignoring international law and going into Iraq and losing more Canadian lives. People will find that they miss the Liberals. Anyway, it is my opinion; I could be wrong. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
In Quebec, they are not enthusiastic about Afghanistan. Also, they are not ones to play down Israel's bombing of Lebanon, especially since they have a large left-leaning population and a large Lebanese population. They would suspect that he is influenced by right-wing Christian Protestant thinking and for liberal Catholics that does not take their fancy. C'est simplement epouvantable pour les Quebecois.
I believe Quebecers also want affordable day care. Their honeymoon with the Conservatives will not last. I think the corruption of the Liberals is better than the corruption of ignoring international law and going into Iraq and losing more Canadian lives. People will find that they miss the Liberals. Anyway, it is my opinion; I could be wrong. |
1. Do you really think Israel/lebanon has any bearing on Canadian politics?
2. Is any Canadian politician suggesting Canada become involved in Iraq?
Sound like you're grasping for straws there. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:48 am Post subject: |
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Bucheon Bum wrote:
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| 1. Do you really think Israel/lebanon has any bearing on Canadian politics? |
When Joe Clark became PM in 1979, his first act was to try to move Canada's embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, as per a promise he had made in order to swing a few Jewish ridings to the Tories. I was only about 10 at the time, but even I knew that the ensuing firestorm was THE story on the nightly news for a number of weeks, until Clark backed down.
If a Canadian PM is seen as taking an unequivocal stand in favour of one side or another in the Middle East, yes, I think it would have an impact, at least in ridings with heavy Jewish or Muslim populations. And this can be important in a situation where one party is hanging onto control of parliament(and hence government) by the skin of its teeth. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:58 am Post subject: |
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2. Is any Canadian politician suggesting Canada become involved in Iraq?
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Not as far as I know. However, the Conservatives DID advocate going into Iraq back when the war started, and I think that's probably enough to spook people into thinking that Harper would sign us up when the next American-led military misadventure comes along.
Mind you, Ignatieff was an even bigger(and more influential) booster of the Iraq War then Harper, yet he still managed to get as far as he has with the support of many in Canada's self-styled liberal intelligentsia. But Ignatieff portrays an urbane, intellectual image, as opposed to Harper's Alberta(read: American) cowboy. And Canadian liberals tend to be easily impressed shallow imagery and rhetoric. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
In Quebec, they are not enthusiastic about Afghanistan. Also, they are not ones to play down Israel's bombing of Lebanon, especially since they have a large left-leaning population and a large Lebanese population. They would suspect that he is influenced by right-wing Christian Protestant thinking and for liberal Catholics that does not take their fancy. C'est simplement epouvantable pour les Quebecois.
I believe Quebecers also want affordable day care. Their honeymoon with the Conservatives will not last. I think the corruption of the Liberals is better than the corruption of ignoring international law and going into Iraq and losing more Canadian lives. People will find that they miss the Liberals. Anyway, it is my opinion; I could be wrong. |
1. Do you really think Israel/lebanon has any bearing on Canadian politics?
2. Is any Canadian politician suggesting Canada become involved in Iraq?
Sound like you're grasping for straws there. |
Canadians, at least, prefer to look balanced and universal. An extremely pro-Arab or pro-Israeli stance damages a Canadian politician. Ignatieff, for example, made the killing at Qana seem like it was nothing by saying he didn't lose sleep over it. He realized it was the wrong thing to say, and he later said what Israel did may have constituted a war crime. He tried to assuage some pro-Lebanese elements or people on the left who thought that was too right wing and then went and used the word war crime and his campaign manager from Thornhill resigned. She resigned partially because her riding has a large Jewish presence. Irwin Cotler's wife also resigned. I think this will make Ignatieff undesirable to many on both sides regarding the Arab-Israeli issues. He blundered which will help Stephane Dion.
The Conservatives cannot win an election without seats in Quebec. They could if they swept Ontario, but that is wishful thinking. Quebec has many people on the left. Its French population opposed joining in the invasion of Iraq more than English speakers. It is true, the majority of Anglo-Canadians opposed it as well. But we are talking about a 20% difference between Quebec and say Ontario during that time. When it comes to Israel, many in Quebec are not fond of someone pro-Israeli in a very overt way just like many in Ontario would not want someone to ingratiate themselves in an unbalanced way towards Arabs. |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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I think that conservatives really COULD be doing worse than they are. That SAID, I'm not all THAT impressed with them.
They campaigned (as I recall) on getting rid of the GST....they trimmed it...1(!!) %.
They did, in uncertain terms, agree with Kyoto and bailed.
They scrapped the massive medical pot program that was years ahead of it's time (....Conservatives...ok....PROGRESSIVE Conservatives...no). |
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enns
Joined: 02 May 2006
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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Got your facts a little off there. They campaigned to lower the GST by 1% within their first year in office, and then another 1% within 4 years. It was the Liberals who campaigned in 1993 to abolish the GST, the new Conservatives are smarter than to promise something they cannot keep.
They have also never been a supporter of Kyoto; I cannot imagine any Kyoto supporter voting for them. They have been clear that the Kyoto targets were unrealistic(look at Martin's record on implementing it) and wanted a "Made in Canada solution"(the new Clean Air Act).
Look at the Tories campaign pledges: never have I seen a Federal government live up to its campaign promises as the Conservatives have. This is the ultimate display of democracy.
And to respond to the OP's comments about Harper wanting to bring religion into his agenda, look at the facts and not Canada's very left-wing media spins on him. He is a moderate protestant (Martin and Chretien were moderate Catholics, every PM has had a religion). He has always been pro-choice and agrees with the party's philosophy not to reopen the debate. In fact, think back to when he ran for the Alliance leadership, he was grilled every day about his pro-choice stance and his "liberal" views. And more than half of Canadians are not in favour of same-sex marriage, so his view on this isn't out of the main stream. Lastly, do you really think Harper wants to jeopardize his hold on power by allowing controversial legislation to pass? His party will always be in line with average Canadians(sorry, but never with NDPers). Both the Liberals and Tories have a large number of pro-choice, anti-same sex marriage MPs, that's what "big tent" parties allow. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| enns wrote: |
Got your facts a little off there. They campaigned to lower the GST by 1% within their first year in office, and then another 1% within 4 years. It was the Liberals who campaigned in 1993 to abolish the GST, the new Conservatives are smarter than to promise something they cannot keep.
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I distinctly remember this promise
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They have also never been a supporter of Kyoto; I cannot imagine any Kyoto supporter voting for them. They have been clear that the Kyoto targets were unrealistic(look at Martin's record on implementing it) and wanted a "Made in Canada solution"(the new Clean Air Act).
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I don't know about this.
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Look at the Tories campaign pledges: never have I seen a Federal government live up to its campaign promises as the Conservatives have. This is the ultimate display of democracy.
And to respond to the OP's comments about Harper wanting to bring religion into his agenda, look at the facts and not Canada's very left-wing media spins on him. He is a moderate protestant (Martin and Chretien were moderate Catholics, every PM has had a religion). He has always been pro-choice and agrees with the party's philosophy not to reopen the debate. In fact, think back to when he ran for the Alliance leadership, he was grilled every day about his pro-choice stance and his "liberal" views. And more than half of Canadians are not in favour of same-sex marriage, so his view on this isn't out of the main stream. Lastly, do you really think Harper wants to jeopardize his hold on power by allowing controversial legislation to pass? His party will always be in line with average Canadians(sorry, but never with NDPers). Both the Liberals and Tories have a large number of pro-choice, anti-same sex marriage MPs, that's what "big tent" parties allow. |
I disagree. I actually think you may not be looking hard enough. But alas, a post by post 10 page debate on this would probably lead nowhere anyways  |
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enns
Joined: 02 May 2006
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| I agree. I'd be happy to provide you with links regarding my claims though, they are all very much public knowledge in Canadian politics and political circles. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| enns wrote: |
| I agree. I'd be happy to provide you with links regarding my claims though, they are all very much public knowledge in Canadian politics and political circles. |
Yes, actually. I beleive what I believe, but I am not stupid enough to think I am always right. IF I am wrong, I would rather know and not continue it  I still don't trust Harper's views of Christianity at all! |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
In Quebec, they are not enthusiastic about Afghanistan. Also, they are not ones to play down Israel's bombing of Lebanon, especially since they have a large left-leaning population and a large Lebanese population. They would suspect that he is influenced by right-wing Christian Protestant thinking and for liberal Catholics that does not take their fancy. C'est simplement epouvantable pour les Quebecois.
I believe Quebecers also want affordable day care. Their honeymoon with the Conservatives will not last. I think the corruption of the Liberals is better than the corruption of ignoring international law and going into Iraq and losing more Canadian lives. People will find that they miss the Liberals. Anyway, it is my opinion; I could be wrong. |
1. Do you really think Israel/lebanon has any bearing on Canadian politics?
2. Is any Canadian politician suggesting Canada become involved in Iraq?
Sound like you're grasping for straws there. |
Canadians, at least, prefer to look balanced and universal. An extremely pro-Arab or pro-Israeli stance damages a Canadian politician. Ignatieff, for example, made the killing at Qana seem like it was nothing by saying he didn't lose sleep over it. He realized it was the wrong thing to say, and he later said what Israel did may have constituted a war crime. He tried to assuage some pro-Lebanese elements or people on the left who thought that was too right wing and then went and used the word war crime and his campaign manager from Thornhill resigned. She resigned partially because her riding has a large Jewish presence. Irwin Cotler's wife also resigned. I think this will make Ignatieff undesirable to many on both sides regarding the Arab-Israeli issues. He blundered which will help Stephane Dion.
The Conservatives cannot win an election without seats in Quebec. They could if they swept Ontario, but that is wishful thinking. Quebec has many people on the left. Its French population opposed joining in the invasion of Iraq more than English speakers. It is true, the majority of Anglo-Canadians opposed it as well. But we are talking about a 20% difference between Quebec and say Ontario during that time. When it comes to Israel, many in Quebec are not fond of someone pro-Israeli in a very overt way just like many in Ontario would not want someone to ingratiate themselves in an unbalanced way towards Arabs. |
so you covered the Israel bit (still think you're overanalyzing it), but you didn't address #2. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| enns wrote: |
| I agree. I'd be happy to provide you with links regarding my claims though, they are all very much public knowledge in Canadian politics and political circles. |
Yes, actually. I beleive what I believe, but I am not stupid enough to think I am always right. IF I am wrong, I would rather know and not continue it I still don't trust Harper's views of Christianity at all! |
Harper was one of the few MPs back in 1994 that voted against having anything to do with gay marriage in the Reform party platform because he didn't think it applied and disagreed that the party should involve itself with moral issues such as that one.
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Although not associated with the Reform Party's radical wing, Harper expressed socially conservative views on some issues. In 1994, he opposed plans by federal Justice Minister Allan Rock to introduce spousal benefits for same-sex couples. Citing the recent failure of a similar initiative in Ontario, he was quoted as saying, "What I hope they learn is not to get into it. There are more important social and economic issues, not to mention the unity question".[17] Harper also spoke against the possibility of the Canadian Human Rights Commission or the Supreme Court changing federal policy in these and other matters.[18]
At the Reform Party's 1994 policy convention, Harper was part of a small minority of delegates who voted against restricting the definition of marriage to "the union of one man and one woman".[19] He actually opposed both same-sex marriage and mandated benefits for same-sex couples, but argued that political parties should refrain from taking official positions on these and other issues of conscience. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| laogaiguk wrote: |
| enns wrote: |
| I agree. I'd be happy to provide you with links regarding my claims though, they are all very much public knowledge in Canadian politics and political circles. |
Yes, actually. I beleive what I believe, but I am not stupid enough to think I am always right. IF I am wrong, I would rather know and not continue it I still don't trust Harper's views of Christianity at all! |
Harper was one of the few MPs back in 1994 (I think that's the year) that voted against having anything to do with gay marriage in the Reform party platform because he didn't think it applied and disagreed that the party should involve itself with moral issues such as that one. |
I know. I also don't really have any fact to back up my fears, otherwise I would have posted them But I still don't trust him. Just the way he does things, we could be forced to go to church every Sunday before we even heard about it obviously kidding here |
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