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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:20 am Post subject: Iraqis better off under Saddam, says former weapons inspect |
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Iraqis better off under Saddam, says former weapons inspector
Last Updated: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 | 6:35 AM ET
CBC News
The war in Iraq is a "pure failure" that has left Iraqis in a worse state than when they lived under Saddam Hussein, former United Nations chief weapons inspector Hans Blix said in comments published Wednesday.
"Iraq is a pure failure," Blix was quoted as saying in the Danish newspaper Politiken.
"If the Americans pull out, there is a risk that they will leave a country in civil war. At the same time it doesn't seem that the United States can help to stabilize the situation by staying there."
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2006/10/25/iraq-failure.html |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| I am not sure I agree. In terms of the amount of violence, he is probably correct. In terms of the ability to act as Iraqis wish, he is probably wrong. |
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Interested
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
| I am not sure I agree. In terms of the amount of violence, he is probably correct. In terms of the ability to act as Iraqis wish, he is probably wrong. |
It depends what you wish to do. If you wish to live a normal life then no. If you wish to send your children to school without fear of them being kidnapped then no. If you wish to have a job, then increasingly no. If you are a woman and wish to walk out the door without a hijab then no. If you wish to wear western clothes, then no. If you wish to go to the market without fear of being blown to shreds then no. If you wish to go to university without being targetted for sectarian violence then no. If you are a women who works as a doctor or as a university lecturer and wish to do your job without fear of being killed then no. If you wish to live above the poverty line, then increasingly no. For 1 out of 40 people since the war began, if you wish to live then no.
If you wish to go out raping, torturing, kidnapping or on an afternoon killing spree, then yes, summerwhine is quite correct in his/her assessment. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:08 am Post subject: |
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I like your intentional play on words with my name.
They were given freedom of choice for the first time in 30 years. What did you expect from them? That they would follow your game plan? That they would act in what you think is their best interests?
Freedom of action is what they have. Absolute domination of thought and action by the US military is not a complaint I have heard of lately.
Freedom of action is what they have. I don't disagree with your points, but they do have freedom of action. Freedom is not always free of pain.
I am not taking a side, I am just stating the obvious. |
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Interested
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:19 am Post subject: |
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If ever you find yourself living in extreme poverty - worrying how the hell you are going to keep your children alive and well in the coming months, and find yourself living in a dangerous anarchic society where death or physical mutilation could strike you out of the blue at any moment, you'll start to see how much you cherish the 'freedom' you now hold so dear.
I saw this very conversation between Iraqi and American soldiers on a British documentary. The young naive American soldiers were waxing lyrical about how their Iraqi counterparts were now free, and the Iraqis were looking at them like they were completely barking mad and asking, but what is our freedom when we can now barely put food on the table for our children???? They explained to these US soldiers that they had preferred life under Saddam, because at least under him they had the basic essentials needed for survival. The US soldiers (who had never experienced extreme poverty, lack of basic medical care, and the fear of bringing up a family in a warzone) in turn looked at the Iraqis like they were barking mad. It went against all the propaganda they'd been spoonfed by the army. |
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Interested
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
I like your intentional play on words with my name.
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Well its good to see that you are not one of these hypersensitive types operating on this forum.  |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| who had never experienced extreme poverty, |
Well, I have experienced that and yes I know the psychological affect it has. It takes a while to get over it. I am not saying the situation in Iraq is good and I am not saying that I agree with the current situation.
I am saying that the people in one area of their lives, which is opposite to your points do have more freedom.
That doesn't mean that they won't wax lyrical about the security they had under Saddam. Though, you have lived under a system of freedom and would you give up your freedom to accept their past freedoms under a dictatorship?
The UN has to provide them the same freedom that the UN expects in their headquarters and then let the Iraqis discuss if they are worse off. The choice is there, its just that the minority at the moment have more strenght of conviction then the majority. |
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Interested
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
| Quote: |
| who had never experienced extreme poverty, |
Well, I have experienced that and yes I know the psychological affect it has. It takes a while to get over it. I am not saying the situation in Iraq is good and I am not saying that I agree with the current situation.
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I hope you're talking about the kind of extreme poverty where your children are starving before your eyes, slowly deteriorating due to severe malnutrion. You actually begin wondering if they will all survive the year out. If you are, then I'll know we are on the same wavelength!
Because that is becoming the reality for more and more Iraqis according to aidworkers in the region.
Secondly, for freedom to mean anything, you need security to enjoy it. As security has been drastically undermined by the ill thought out invasion, the chances for practicing any freedom have greatly diminished. I suspect Iraqis had more personal freedom under Saddam than they do now in fact. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| I hope your talking about the kind of extreme poverty where your children are starving before your eyes, slowly deteriorating due to severe malnutrion. You actually begin wondering if they will all survive the year out. |
My Children?
No, I had none. I was wondering at the time whether I would live out the year. I won't go into it in public, but never again is all I can say. |
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Interested
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I hope your talking about the kind of extreme poverty where your children are starving before your eyes, slowly deteriorating due to severe malnutrion. You actually begin wondering if they will all survive the year out. |
My Children?
No, I had none. I was wondering at the time whether I would live out the year. I won't go into it in public, but never again is all I can say. |
Well that's what I wanted to know. Whether you'd understood the extreme part.
As a parent, I'd hate to be in that situation. I'd rather live in a dictatorship where my children were healthy and educated, living in relative security, than in an anarchic society where they could be kidnapped, tortured, raped or blown to bits at a moments notice, with little food to put on the table if they got home that day.. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| As a parent, I'd hate to be in that situation. I'd rather live in a dictatorship where my children were healthy and educated, living in relative security, than in an anarchic society where they could be kidnapped, tortured, raped or blown to bits at a moments notice, with little food to put on the table if they got home that day.. |
You seem to be thinking that both situations have to be permanent. Are there not also times when it's a parent's responsibility to offer hope and a chance at a better life?
There is a legally constituted government that is attempting to represent all factions and that is attempting to bring peace, stability and security. Doesn't that government deserve to be supported, so that children have a future that is better than both the past and present? |
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W.T.Carl
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes, I guess if you were a SUNNI you would rather live under Saddam. If you were a KURD and had seen your family NERVE GASSED, I think not. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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SH kept the fanatical muslims at bay. The Americans have let them loose.
They will kill, torture, rape and destroy everything in their path until the next strongman comes along and beats them back into submission. It is the natural way of things.
The Americans should keep out of muslim nations. They will destroy themselves...They don't need our help with that. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| W.T.Carl wrote: |
| Yes, I guess if you were a SUNNI you would rather live under Saddam. If you were a KURD and had seen your family NERVE GASSED, I think not. |
Right, at least let's not pretend that the Kurds are worse off. It's the non-Kurd Sunnis and Shi'a who are making their part of Iraq into a hell-hole. |
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Interested
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:56 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| As a parent, I'd hate to be in that situation. I'd rather live in a dictatorship where my children were healthy and educated, living in relative security, than in an anarchic society where they could be kidnapped, tortured, raped or blown to bits at a moments notice, with little food to put on the table if they got home that day.. |
You seem to be thinking that both situations have to be permanent. Are there not also times when it's a parent's responsibility to offer hope and a chance at a better life?
There is a legally constituted government that is attempting to represent all factions and that is attempting to bring peace, stability and security. Doesn't that government deserve to be supported, so that children have a future that is better than both the past and present? |
If your child is killed, that's pretty permanent. Frankly, I'd rather have a live child living in relative safety, than a free but dead child. I think people on this forum fail to understand quite how bad the situation is in Iraq. It's beyond anyone's most frightful nightmare - and a nightmare that Iraqi people will not be able to wake up from for a long time. To get a little taste of it check this website from time to time: http://www.electroniciraq.net/ Most Iraqis feel that their 'freedom' has come at too high a price - a price they never asked to pay. There is no lovely free western style democracy in sight, and I suspect they'll end up under another tyrant in the end...and after this, they'll actually be glad of it. The only people who seem to be enjoying their freedom are the sick extremists who now have the freedom to impose their warped worldview on a miserable and helpless general population.
At least during Saddam's reign people knew who to fear, and how to stay under the radar - now they can be attacked out of the blue from any direction. |
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