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Zoidberg
Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Location: Somewhere too hot for my delicate marine constitution
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 Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Not only did he compare women to meat, he compared men to feral animals siffing after it. His whole statement was demeaning to the entire human race. If he believes men are so out of control that the sight of skin or hair can cause them to rape, then he no respect for men either.
This guy is an idiot, plain and simple. But it is not entirely to do with his religion. Other muslim leaders are denouncing him. And back when the rapes mentioned in the article happened, I remember the media interviewing random young men for their opinions. A large number, of various ethnic and religious backgrounds said things very similar to what the mufti said.
The issue here is this public figure is making ridiculous inflammatory comments. His religion is not the issue, since if it were a Christian or a Buddhist making these comments, no one would be taking his religion into account. |
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Teufelswacht
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Location: Land Of The Not Quite Right
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| Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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His comments:
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Read Sheik Hilaly's comments
The following are extracts from Sheik Taj Din al-Hilaly's controversial sermon given last month, as independently translated by an SBS Arabic expert.
"Those atheists, people of the book (Christians and Jews), where will they end up? In Surfers Paradise? On the Gold Coast? Where will they end up? In hell and not part-time, for eternity. They are the worst in God�s creation."
"When it comes to adultery, it�s 90 percent the woman�s responsibility. Why? Because a woman owns the weapon of seduction. It�s she who takes off her clothes, shortens them, flirts, puts on make-up and powder and takes to the streets, God protect us, dallying. It�s she who shortens, raises and lowers. Then, it�s a look, a smile, a conversation, a greeting, a talk, a date, a meeting, a crime, then Long Bay jail. Then you get a judge, who has no mercy, and he gives you 65 years."
"But when it comes to this disaster, who started it? In his literature, writer al-Rafee says, if I came across a rape crime, I would discipline the man and order that the woman be jailed for life. Why would you do this, Rafee? He said because if she had not left the meat uncovered, the cat wouldn�t have snatched it."
"If you get a kilo of meat, and you don�t put it in the fridge or in the pot or in the kitchen but you leave it on a plate in the backyard, and then you have a fight with the neighbour because his cats eat the meat, you�re crazy. Isn�t this true?"
"If you take uncovered meat and put it on the street, on the pavement, in a garden, in a park, or in the backyard, without a cover and the cats eat it, then whose fault will it be, the cats, or the uncovered meat�s? The uncovered meat is the disaster. If the meat was covered the cats wouldn�t roam around it. If the meat is inside the fridge, they won�t get it."
"If the woman is in her boudoir, in her house and if she�s wearing the veil and if she shows modesty, disasters don�t happen."
"Satan sees women as half his soldiers. You�re my messenger in necessity, Satan tells women you�re my weapon to bring down any stubborn man. There are men that I fail with. But you�re the best of my weapons."
"�The woman was behind Satan playing a role when she disobeyed God and went out all dolled up and unveiled and made of herself palatable food that rakes and perverts would race for. She was the reason behind this sin taking place."
SOURCE: SBS World News Australia
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I found it interesting that his comments about Christians and Jews are NOT part of the issue. Wasn't this moron part of some kind of inter-faith dialogue group in Australia?
In the reports about some muslims giving this idiot grief about his comments, are there any reports that specifically mention his comments about other faiths. Or, is the grief just concerning his idiotic, 7th Century, men-are-nothing-more-than-self-propelled-boners, comments about women?
| Quote: |
| Not only did he compare women to meat, he compared men to feral animals siffing after it. His whole statement was demeaning to the entire human race. If he believes men are so out of control that the sight of skin or hair can cause them to rape, then he no respect for men either. |
Gotta agree with you on that, Zoidberg.
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| ...if it were a Christian or a Buddhist making these comments, no one would be taking his religion into account. |
Sorry Zoidberg, gotta disagree with you on that. |
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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: Women are "weapons" used by "Satan" |
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| ChimpumCallao wrote: |
| happeningthang wrote: |
| BJWD wrote: |
He, and those who support him, should be deported. Drop him in the middle of Saudi. I can't believe that things like this are still said in public in the West.
It is motherfuc%ing disgusting. |
Disgusting yes, but get a grip. He's not the only one to be spreading distasteful ignorance around the place. There have been, not that long ago, cases where judges in their summations have said, essentially, the same thing. They're howled down in the press, reprimanded via 'stern words' and sent to a seminar.
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OK. The only way for you to even stand on half a leg with this debate is to produce an article, no older than five years, which blames women for rape. It should be a Western public figure saying this in a public setting.
Go for it. |
http://www.truthaboutrape.co.uk/2005campaign.html#previous |
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Zoidberg
Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Location: Somewhere too hot for my delicate marine constitution
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| Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Teufelswacht wrote: |
| Quote: |
| ...if it were a Christian or a Buddhist making these comments, no one would be taking his religion into account. |
Sorry Zoidberg, gotta disagree with you on that. |
Well, yeah, I wasn't really thinking. He is a religious leader, of course his religion is taken into account. However, what I was thinking but didn't express is that some people here are using this moron's words to tar the entire muslim community, who are largely not in agreement with him (the Australian community at least). |
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ChimpumCallao
Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: your mom
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:23 pm Post subject: Re: Women are "weapons" used by "Satan" |
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| happeningthang wrote: |
| ChimpumCallao wrote: |
| happeningthang wrote: |
| BJWD wrote: |
He, and those who support him, should be deported. Drop him in the middle of Saudi. I can't believe that things like this are still said in public in the West.
It is motherfuc%ing disgusting. |
Disgusting yes, but get a grip. He's not the only one to be spreading distasteful ignorance around the place. There have been, not that long ago, cases where judges in their summations have said, essentially, the same thing. They're howled down in the press, reprimanded via 'stern words' and sent to a seminar.
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OK. The only way for you to even stand on half a leg with this debate is to produce an article, no older than five years, which blames women for rape. It should be a Western public figure saying this in a public setting.
Go for it. |
http://www.truthaboutrape.co.uk/2005campaign.html#previous |
Not so fast buddy, i just read the whole web page.
POST IT and let everyone see your comparison...a judge whose only quote is "he's not an angel" and this imam.
here's the difference, you had to scour to find ONE source that is at best questionable, while I could literally find this same type of garbage from half the imams out there.
THERE'S A BIG DIFFERENCE. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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Let me light up a cigar and stimulate my senses and think about this one.
I have am familiar with the mode of thinking that emanates from this cleric.
I think it is positive that the uproar regarding this religious cleric to be suspended. It sends a message that such outdated thinking found among some segments of the Middle Eastern populace and finds coin among them must be side-lined in favour of modern thinking.
In the Judeo-Christian-Islamic thinking of the traditional form the woman is the temptress, the one who encourages a man to break rules, and he has little control when she tempts to share a joyful, carnal repose with her. That is why Christian women also wore the hijab at one point, and Orthodox Jews, in some cases, where something equivalent.
So we know from whence this thinking emanates. But we don't approve, and we should be clear about it and send the message to the Middle East that those who hint that women are responsible for rapes and men cannot control themselves are justifying criminality. I do know that increasingly religious clerics are being monitored for their sermons. Obviously, a Muslim who attended the prayers was outraged, and we thus have these abominable comments.
I see a certain positive in the reporting of this sermon and the suspension of the imam. As someone did say, there was a Canadian judge who was forced to step down who said something similar. The point is to monitor
those who want to verbally "abet" those who commit sexual assault, and we should hold their feet to the fire. It it too bad that the only ones who hold imams accountable are the security services of the Middle Eastern countries rather than the populace. Thankfully, most people wouldn't use the thinking of this imam to find an excuse to commit a crime. |
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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: Women are "weapons" used by "Satan" |
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| ChimpumCallao wrote: |
Not so fast buddy, i just read the whole web page.
POST IT and let everyone see your comparison...a judge whose only quote is "he's not an angel" and this imam.
here's the difference, you had to scour to find ONE source that is at best questionable, while I could literally find this same type of garbage from half the imams out there.
THERE'S A BIG DIFFERENCE. |
I agree, there is a big difference. Imams talk, judges are taking actions with real consequences.
I don't see much difference between the thinking that prompted the Imam's words, and the thinking that has figures in the judicial system placing the burden of proof on female rape victims. The big difference is that one is a religious figure blah de blahing to people who believe in invisible friends, and the other is an important figure in a democratic institution. It's more worrying to me if a judge condemns gays than if Pat Robertson does.
The big difference is we expect judges to uphold law equally and trust them with the authority to do so. Imam's can blather on about anything they want, in much the same way Christian groups can, because they have the freedom of speech that our democratic society allows.
As for "scouring" the internet this one popped up quite readily, and demonstrated that there's a kind of sexist thinking alive and well in the west, as well as in the words of the Imam's Islam. There is one case in Australia that got a lot of publicity at the time with the judge saying, essentially, the same thing as imam man. I didn't dedicate myself to tracking this quote down, because I think that the link demonstrates the actions of people in instituitions, speak a lot louder than some fire-brand muslim preacher's words. Don't you?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/breakfast/4455622.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1571375,00.html
Last edited by happeningthang on Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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Looks like quite a few muslims in Oz aren't tossing this guy to the side, but are rallying behind him.
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Relaxed sheik gets rock star treatment
John Stapleton
October 28, 2006
WHILE the rest of the country expressed outrage at his comments, Taj Din al-Hilali enjoyed rock star status when he arrived at Lakemba Mosque yesterday.
He was smiling when he exited Sydney's now infamous mosque, clearly buoyed by the backing he had received inside, where 5000 worshippers shouted their support during the midday service.
Asked if he would resign, he said: "After we clean the world of the White House."
The crowd erupted into applause. |
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20658464-601,00.html
I guess we are going to have to reassess our "muslims are distancing themselves from him" posts now, eh? |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
Looks like quite a few muslims in Oz aren't tossing this guy to the side, but are rallying behind him.
| Quote: |
Relaxed sheik gets rock star treatment
John Stapleton
October 28, 2006
WHILE the rest of the country expressed outrage at his comments, Taj Din al-Hilali enjoyed rock star status when he arrived at Lakemba Mosque yesterday.
There is a population of 300,000 Muslim Australian? Are 5,000 worshippers 300,000 people? Negative? Do I think it is retarded, if true, that he did not get sharp criticism from the worshippers? Of course, I do.
However, you are acting like he is the only imam and there is only one mosque in Australia. I am not dismissing alarming attitudes that should be dealt with in a forthright fashion. Far from it, BJWD. However, we do know he was suspended, and you cannot be judicious and say 5,000 worshippers represent the 300,000 Muslims of Australia. 5,000 is less than 2% of their respective population. You do the math. We do not have enough scientific information to make a judgement on the mode of thinking of say 51% of the Australian Muslim population. We can only say there is problem among a certain segment of the population, and this must be dealt with. Can we agree on that, at least?
He was smiling when he exited Sydney's now infamous mosque, clearly buoyed by the backing he had received inside, where 5000 worshippers shouted their support during the midday service.
Asked if he would resign, he said: "After we clean the world of the White House."
The crowd erupted into applause. |
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20658464-601,00.html
I guess we are going to have to reassess our "muslims are distancing themselves from him" posts now, eh? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:15 am Post subject: |
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Your post is really formatted strangely..
I'm not "acting like he is the only imam". I pointed out that 5,000 supported him and said "quite a few". You are aware, of course, that quite a few doesn't mean all, right?
You will attack everything about me and nothing about the topic. What are you afraid of? |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
Your post is really formatted strangely..
I'm not "acting like he is the only imam". I pointed out that 5,000 supported him and said "quite a few". You are aware, of course, that quite a few doesn't mean all, right?
You will attack everything about me and nothing about the topic. What are you afraid of? |
Yes, it was formatted in an odd-way on a Saturday night.
You did state, BJWD, correct me if I am wrong, that we should re-assess the idea Muslims are distancing themselves in Australia from that speech. We do not have enough information to have this view that Australian Muslims are wolves in sheeps' clothing. I know you didn't say that, but you weren't careful to say that you didn't lump the majority of Australian Muslims into the thinking of those people.
We can only say that we have a serious problem among some Muslims as you stated, and those who immigrate to Western countries should show a certain level of education, proficiency in the target language, and learn about the history, laws of the country and profess to accept them. I think that is fair enough. It would upset the ACLU type organization of whatever country, but it does not matter.
BJWD, I am sure you have been to Itaewon. Sometimes you can see people from South Asia with large bears and a Pakistani traditional garb associated with the religious. There would often be a difference among those who dress in that fashion and those who do not and those who are with a bear and those who are sans a beard. The King of Jordan is a Muslim. I am sure there is a world of difference between him and those who were cheering the old Egyptian Australian cleric. |
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manlyboy
Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Location: Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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Interested
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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I was speaking today to a North African muslim friend about this. He gets Arabic news broadcast from Dubai and the Dubai journalists were discussing it. They seemed to have the same opinion of the mufti's words as that of the general Australian population i.e. that his words were appalling. I was quite pleased to hear him being condemned by muslims in a muslim country.
My friend also found his remarks very offensive - 'comparing a human being with uncovered meat - this is really horrible!'
There are many on this board that would rub their hands with glee at the chance to tar all muslims with the same brush as the mufti - I'm glad my experience shows they are very wrong to do so. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| I don't see much difference between the thinking that prompted the Imam's words, and the thinking that has figures in the judicial system placing the burden of proof on female rape victims. |
I do. The attitudes are in the same general ball park, but comparing women to meat, and to satan, and suggesting they should be in thier rooms is taking it to a whole other level. Both attitudes are bad, and it`s a question of degree. The Mufti`s view is an extremist view... |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, well, perhaps he isn't going to step-down after all.
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EMBATTLED Muslim cleric Sheik Taj al-Din al-Hialy has vowed he will not resign, complaining he is a victim of media propaganda and exaggeration.
The cleric has been under pressure to step down since he sparked outrage with his comments, in a Ramadan sermon in Sydney in September, likening immodestly dressed women to uncovered meat, and suggesting they invited sexual assault.
�I am outspoken, and I have the courage to say the truth,� he told interviewer Ray Martin.
�I don't fear any man, but I also have the courage to admit my mistakes and if I did something wrong, I will say that I did something wrong. |
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/printpage/0,5942,20746549,00.html
I guess he will be leading the army of 'moderates' in Oz still... |
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