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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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 Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| Woland wrote: |
| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
No argument, here... You're wrong.
Are you a clueless purist or simply dishonest?
1) Go to google, preferences, and reset your preferences to English pages only. No Spanish or German pages after that.
2) Don't you know that dictionaries hardly ever include colloquialisms? Yeah, colloquialisms. See, the thing is, language is not determined by the contents of a dictionary, but by its users. Don't believe me? Well, the only languages that don't evolve are dead languages. Language doesn't wait years for the new edition of the dictionary before it evolves.
3) Quoting the number of results for 'rediculous' or 'definately'? Oh, please. You know that those words, regardless of spelling, are far more commonly used than 'donner kebab' or 'doner kebab' (88900 in English--again, learn to use Google).
4) "But most of all, the wikipedia site you refer to highlights the primary spelling as 'doner'."
Well, you conveniently forgot to mention that it also highlights the fact that donner is a common spelling...And I quote, "D�ner Kebab (as d�ner kebap in Turkish and often simply kebap, d�ner, doner, donner or donair)" and "The d�ner kebab (usually doner kebab; sometimes donner kebab; the Arabic name "shawarma" is also commonly used) with salad and sauce is also a very popular dish in both the United Kingdom and Republic of Ireland."
5)"Sigh. If they want to know how to spell words, people go to dictionaries, not search engines. Why? Because even the semi-literate can use the internet and put up web pages."
Sigh...Here's why... http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/doner
Does that mean 'doner' isn't a word?
Dictionaries are limited in scope. As I've already mentioned, they are static. Once they've been published, they don't change, whereas language is in continuous evolution. As a result, you've got over a million words in English, and less than 500000 in the most complete dictionaries.
Again, if you want to know what is acceptable use of a language, refer to its users. One of the best sources of 'real' English is the Cobuild Corpus (its data is taken from publications such as books and magazines). Check what I found in it: "from minestrone soup, telafel and hummous, donner kebab, chicken couscous or crepe suzette if". Sure, it's only one entry (I was only checking through the free sampler), but a search for 'doner' brought up only two concordances (see number 3 again).
I've you've studied linguistics, please return to school do some upgrading. Things have evolved in the last 100 years. |
Neither clueless, purist, nor dishonest. And my linguistics credentials are in good shape, as well.
If you read my earlier posts seriously, you'll see that I conceded your point that some people have spelled the word with two 'n's.
My point in my initial post was simply that the word in Turkish and, as a small aside, that its Turkish root has one 'n'. It really wasn't intended to insult you and I'm sorry you took it that way.
I took some offense at the "blah, blah, blah" line you put in your response and got a bit hyperbolic in my reply. For that I apologize. But my point about the spelling of doner with two n's being less than standard stands. It's supported by your own frequency data from google (if usage alone does determine what the standard is), but also in the judgements of those who record these things. Again, if you'll read my posts, you'll note that I said that most dictionaries have no entry on the matter, but that one (Cambridge) does favor the single 'n' spelling. I expect that any trend of recognition will continue in that direction because 1) the historic root is spelled with one 'n'; 2) one dictionary has already recognized that as standard; and 3) the usage numbers support it.
My point about the unreliability of google searches as sources for what is standard (which is why I included the examples 'definately' and 'rediculous' - people produce them, but I don't think you want to claim that they are standard or even as English) also stands. First, when I pointed to the problems in your search, I clicked on your link to get those results. It wasn't my not setting my preferences properly that produced a page in Spanish or a YouTube page in English hosting a Dutch video.
Second, I own up to the fact that I didn't reset my preferences to get my results for 'doner kebab' and that the numbers I gave include the many pages in languages other than English. Mea culpa. I don't have my preferences set to weed out non-English pages in general not in ignorance of that function but because I regularly read pages in Russian, Spanish, and, to a lesser extent, Turkish, French, Italian, Ukrainian, Polish, and Czech (the last four of these just for gist, not details). I don't want to weed out foreign pages. But you are correct, for what we were arguing about, I should have. Considering that your search wound up including a page in Spanish, I wonder if the numbers you got for 'donner kebab' are accurate. Even if we accept them, with the corrected figures you provided for 'doner kebab', the one 'n' reading still has more than 5X hits than the two 'n' spelling.
As for knowledge of corpus linguistics, again, I assure you that my qualifications are up to date, and, although I don't want to argue the point here, are superior to yours (I'm reasonably certain of this, but you could prove me wrong). Check my post history. As far as I know, I'm the only poster here who directs people to corpus linguistics solutions to various problems that they ask about. I don't recall seeing you do it, but again, maybe I missed something. I did it in the last week in response to a post by ajuma about lessons for prepositions.
And I recognize the processing error of anticipation in your last sentence, but won't make a fuss about it because I do the same thing myself sometimes. |
So what if I didn't respond to a post by ajuma? I don't recall reading that particular post, but if you did offer advice based on the corpus, I probably would not have bothered posting if it was the same advice I would have given.
Don't assume that I'm not familiar with corpus linguistics (I'll let that one slide, since I assumed the same of you). I had full access to the Cobuild Corpus at one time (don't see any use in paying for full access now that I'm not doing any academic research. The sampler fits my needs for the moment). I always teach my advanced students how to use the free sampler. I recommend you do the same. Your students will thank you. |
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Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| Woland wrote: |
| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| Blah, blah, blah...donner is one of the accepted spellings in English. |
Where? Among the illiterati? |
Okay I laughed my ass off at that. hahaㅎㅎ! |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Qinella wrote: |
| Woland wrote: |
| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| Blah, blah, blah...donner is one of the accepted spellings in English. |
Where? Among the illiterati? |
Okay I laughed my ass off at that. hahaㅎㅎ! |
Nevertheless, it was a pretty ignorant thing to say for a self-professed expert in corpus linguistics. |
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flotsam
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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I would just like to say that Woland is probably the least informed, least educated poster I have met from Dave's. Don't trust a word he says.
Everybody knows Bush just suspended corpse linguistics. What a maroon.  |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| Nevertheless, it was a pretty ignorant thing to say for a self-professed expert in corpus linguistics. |
Looks to me like one of you is having fun and one of you is taking it a bit too seriously. |
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| Nevertheless, it was a pretty ignorant thing to say for a self-professed expert in corpus linguistics. |
Looks to me like one of you is having fun and one of you is taking it a bit too seriously. |
Yeah, it's all fun until someone gets their eye put out.
Thus endeth our doner and corpus linguistics special report. You are now returned to the pizza and corn thread already in progress. |
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