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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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 Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:16 am Post subject: Bush following Chomsky's playbook: Paglia |
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For all you early-to-mid 90s nostalgists, Camille Paglia has a recent interview in Salon. Some highlights...
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The feckless behavior of the Bush administration has been a lurid illustration of Noam Chomsky's books -- which I've always considered half lunatic. Chomsky's hatred of the United States is pathological -- stemming from some bilious problem with father figures that is too fetid to explore. But Chomsky's toxic view of American imperialism and interventionism is like the playbook of the rigid foreign policy of the Bush administration. So, thanks very much, George Bush, you've managed to rocket Noam Chomsky to the top of the bestseller list!
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| What Clinton did with Monica Lewinsky was far worse than any evidence I've seen thus far about what Foley did with these pages. Clinton, whom I voted for twice, used his superior power as an employer to lure Monica Lewinsky, who was perfectly willing, into these squalid sexual assignations on the grounds of the White House. |
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I hear on conservative talk radio the constant assertion that America is the destined leader of the world, that America is blessed by God and the best place on earth, where everyone wants to live. Therefore anything we do is automatically good, and the only problem is the people who hate us because we're free. Now I'm very pro-American -- my entire family escaped poverty in Italy because they rightly believed in the American dream. My father and five of my uncles proudly served in World War II. But uncritical American boosterism -- automatic endorsement of every government action -- is myopic and self-defeating. I don't think too many people at the top of this administration -- or too many conservative radio hosts, for that matter -- have traveled much outside the U.S. or had contact with other languages. They've had minimal exposure to other worldviews or lifestyles. It's unsettling that politicians with such constricted vision will have been in charge of public policy for eight years of this presidency.
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A big problem is that in the minds of too many Americans, Iraqi culpability for the disaster of 9/11 is still pretty deeply rooted. It's because of the vagueness with which most Americans perceive the map and peoples of the Middle East. It shows how bad education has been in geography and international history at both the high school and college levels. It's highly alarming. The reflex mind-set after 9/11 was, "We've got to do something!" So there was this lashing out at whatever seemed Arab or Muslim.
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I'm worried about the future of America insofar as our academically most promising students are being funneled through the cookie-cutter Ivy League and other elite schools and emerging with this callow anti-American, anti-military cast to their thinking. How are we ever going to get wise leadership or sophisticated diplomacy from people who have such a distorted, clich�d view about everything that's wrong with the United States? Neither the intellectuals nor the Democrats have any answers to the problems we face. It's not as if the Democrats are offering a coherent and persuasive foreign policy -- they have no foreign policy! They just come across as small-minded politicos jockeying for power.
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Last edited by On the other hand on Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| The feckless behavior of the Bush administration has been a lurid illustration of Noam Chomsky's books -- which I've always considered half lunatic. Chomsky's hatred of the United States is pathological -- stemming from some bilious problem with father figures that is too fetid to explore. But Chomsky's toxic view of American imperialism and interventionism is like the playbook of the rigid foreign policy of the Bush administration. So, thanks very much, George Bush, you've managed to rocket Noam Chomsky to the top of the bestseller list. |
My favorite kind of compliment to Chomsky, the backhanded variety...
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| So there was this lashing out at whatever seemed Arab or Muslim. |
I agree with what he said about incorrect associations of Iraq with 9/11, but I don't think Americans lashed out at Muslims on an individual level. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:45 am Post subject: |
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She seems to finally be "coming" European.....must be all the time and attention she has gotten there the past few years. Or the linguini is having its effect, long in coming.
What I've always detested about her (and not really her loud mouth, pretencious, bla bla bla ) was how she is reactionary. Meaning, she just speaks of things after the fact, whatever the new bandwagon. Seems she is at it again, shaking her hair and pointing her well done nails. So I can't give her credit for being "insightful" about Bush, Chomsky or even American insularity.
I'm sure we will hear much more from her on the talk show circuit forthwith, now she's come out of her shell.
DD |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| Meaning, she just speaks of things after the fact, whatever the new bandwagon. |
In fact, she was opposed to this war right from the beginning, even before it started. Maybe do a bit of research before you go caricaturing other peoples' positions, hmm?
http://tinyurl.com/y8xyu8 |
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nasigoreng
Joined: 14 May 2004
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:26 am Post subject: |
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| Post subject: Bush proves Chomksy right: Paglia |
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But Chomsky's toxic view of American imperialism and interventionism is like the playbook of the rigid foreign policy of the Bush administration. So, thanks very much, George Bush, you've managed to rocket Noam Chomsky to the top of the bestseller list!
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Paglia said Bush's foreign policy made Chomsky's writings more popular... that doesn't make them correct. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| nasigoreng wrote: |
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| Post subject: Bush proves Chomksy right: Paglia |
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But Chomsky's toxic view of American imperialism and interventionism is like the playbook of the rigid foreign policy of the Bush administration. So, thanks very much, George Bush, you've managed to rocket Noam Chomsky to the top of the bestseller list!
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Paglia said Bush's foreign policy made Chomsky's writings more popular... that doesn't make them correct. |
Well, she seemed to suggest that Bush's foreign policy is what Chomsky claims all American foreign policy has been(see the "playbook" comment). So she's sort of saying that Chomsky's ideas are correct insofar as they are applied to Bush. Admittedly, her actual statement(as quoted in my opening post) is more nuanced than my headline.
In the interests of nuance, however, and because some readers might just read the headline and not the thread, my title has been changed. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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Quote:
Meaning, she just speaks of things after the fact, whatever the new bandwagon.
In fact, she was opposed to this war right from the beginning, even before it started. Maybe do a bit of research before you go caricaturing other peoples' positions, hmm? |
I wasn't "characterizing " her position on Iraq at all, rather something else. Please read carefully and not so defensively. Further, half the world was against the U.S. invasion of Iraq (or even 90%), so she said nothing "shattering".
I've been a fan of Ms. P for a long time. I do like her take on things and how her mind works. Believe much about what she says regarding almost everything; poetry/writing/media and her cultural conservatism. Her view of male dominated "civilization", her views on gender and sexuality....I could go on.
What I don't like about her, is how she jumps on the publicity bandwagon and in the pretense of being "intellectual" just throws out names and operates with one lines and jingles.....rightly so, many have characterized her as a media *beep*. Further, she over states so much. We don't need an American version of Foucault or Satre where every condition of our culture is sanitized and brought back as evolving from the *beep* or some force of nature.....
But I commend her for her "balls".
DD
A good discussion with her can be found at
http://www.themorningnews.org/archives/birnbaum_v/camille_paglia.php
opps, sorry for the long url..... |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| I wasn't "characterizing " her position on Iraq at all, rather something else. Please read carefully and not so defensively. Further, half the world was against the U.S. invasion of Iraq (or even 90%), so she said nothing "shattering". |
Well, then I'm curious about what bandwagon you think she's jumping on. She's been critical of Bush almost from the beginning of his presidency, and the Iraq war since before it started. So I don't know what you mean by saying she's jumping on a "bandwagon".
And for the record, I never used the word "shattering" to describe what she said.
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| What I don't like about her, is how she jumps on the publicity bandwagon and in the pretense of being "intellectual" just throws out names and operates with one lines and jingles..... |
I agree she tends to toss names, events, and concepts around like confetti at a wedding, but I have to say that I usually find that her references are relevant to what she's talking about. She likes to draw connections between "high culture" and "popular culture", which might give her musings a somewhat undeserved(imho) taint of arbitrariness.
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I've been a fan of Ms. P for a long time. I do like her take on things and how her mind works. Believe much about what she says regarding almost everything; poetry/writing/media and her cultural conservatism. Her view of male dominated "civilization", her views on gender and sexuality....I could go on.
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Yeah, her ability to fuse culturally-conservative ideas with a hip, sexually-savvy presentation style is probably the most interesting thing about her.
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We don't need an American version of Foucault or Satre where every condition of our culture is sanitized and brought back as evolving from the *beep* or some force of nature.....
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I know what you mean by "some force of nature" in regards to Paglia. But how does that connect to Sartre and Foucault? And Sartre and Foucault are two rather different thinkers, dealing with somewhat different issues and agendas. Is it possible, dear Ddeubel, that you have fallen into the American conservatives sloppy habit of conflating all modern French thought into one amorphous, contemptible mass? |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Oh, and thanks for the link. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:50 am Post subject: |
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| I know what you mean by "some force of nature" in regards to Paglia. But how does that connect to Sartre and Foucault? And Sartre and Foucault are two rather different thinkers, dealing with somewhat different issues and agendas. Is it possible, dear Ddeubel, that you have fallen into the American conservatives sloppy habit of conflating all modern French thought into one amorphous, contemptible mass? |
Just to clarify. I think she overstates the "reasons" of things. She goes the way, much like those French thinkers (and I could also add maybeDerrida or Lacan) who tend to get enamoured of their own virtues and less concentrated on the arguement. Only yes, she is easier to follow but that doesn't in my opinion, make her more right.
I prefer a more direct line of cause and effect, even when speaking of philosophy and especially politics. The bandwagon I was accusing her of hopping on was that of "U.S. in Iraq is bad". Yes, she is right but she is making the most of it and I think an intellectual of her stature, which she aspires, should stop frothing for the cameras and start working on her arguements. She too often, does the parade before the cameras, at the bequest of the "fashion" of the day. ..... my opinion.
I don't lump all French thinkers in one "vein" .... love so many , especially Valery and Breton but also more recently and for the best of reads on Americans (besides Miller's The Air Conditioned Nightmare but that is another cookie  )) Henri Peyre. Great man and so to his American peer, (and he probably as an American, made the best Frenchman) lionel Trilling. He is beyond doubt, may favourite Frenchman (besides a few of Proust so perceptive essays). His "the liberal imagination " should be its own university course and I also keep in a special place (having stolen it from the library), Sincerity and Authenticity.
I would also never attempt to "lump" French thinkers nor as many American conservatives do, dismiss them because they might be some "mass" that can't be entered. Not so. I've been stimulated as much by Maritain and his ideas of Christian humanism (as well as Gide) , as I have been by Satre. Just that I prefer my drink, straight up. So Satre and Focault get a D-, for being plainly too "thought full" and not meaty enough.
Just like I like my literature, short not sweet.
DD |
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