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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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 Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| Teufelswacht wrote: |
5 Eagles and/or Meegook:
Endo asks some basic and common questions that are easily explained. According to scripture Christians should be prepared to "contend earnestly for the faith," right? C'mon guys. I really admire your passion and willingness to get out there and mix it up with people, but gosh the answers to the questions posed are not that difficult.
What I am sensing in this thread is validation of the old addage "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." I don't think contending for the faith means adhering to the "No, it isn't - Yes, it is - No, it isn't - Yes, it is" school yard debate strategy. Unfortunately, that is what I think I am seeing here.
I admit I could be wrong. Most of the time I am. Just ask my wife! But when Endo poses a basic question about Yeshua and the adulterous woman - and there is yet to be an on-point response from either of you guys, I start to wonder. Maybe you guys just haven't had the time, I don't know. If that is the case then I will admit I may be off-base. But the response to endo shouldn't take that long to formulate.
Again, I admire you guys, but I think you stop taking a knife to a gun-fight! 
Oh, and to answer the question "Well if you know why don't you answer teuf baby?" I'll say this: (1) I didn't start the debate. (2) I learned a long time ago that you won't convince someone about matter of faith by using an internet site. Since you guys see it differently, that's fine. Go for it. I am just trying to show you the need to be prepared and study some simple apologetics before you decide to engage in discussions with persons ambivalent and/or even hostile to your faith on an internet forum. Finally (3) Yes, I could easily answer endo's question - Can you? Then do it!!
Take care.
T |
I don't know if you noticed, but I answered three of his previous questions in which he didn't respond, so then I am not going to keep on chasing the wind. You know whadda I mean? |
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Moldy Rutabaga
Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Location: Ansan, Korea
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:46 am Post subject: |
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Yahweh in the Old Testement is not the same as the God or Jesus in the New Testement. I see Yahweh as a tribal God of the Israelites who is vengeful (see Sodam & Gomorra) and manipulative (see Abraham).
Jesus's message on the other hand absolutely contradicts this. The famous quote of Jesus "let he who is without sin cast the first stone", is in direct response to a crowd to wants to stone a woman to death for adultery. They want to murder this woman because this is what the laws of Moses states. So weren't the laws of Moses given to him by God? So wouldn't Jesus's message condradict God? |
These are honest questions. They deserve honest answers without a rock'em, sock'em form of theological discussion. I will try my best.
When I think of how our Father is portrayed in the OT as opposed to His depiction in the NT, there is a wide gap in His "personality"; the OT seems so full of nastiness and the OT seems so touchy-feely. How can they be the same deity? This is the only analogy which makes sense to me...
When you are a little boy, the rules your parents give you seem arbitrary and brutal. If you hit your little sister, ignore your homework, or eat all the cookies, you'll get spanked good and hard, the end. But when you get to be a teenager, suddenly the rules are all changed. Your parents begin to discuss with you the importance of being kind to people, of a good education, and a healthy diet. The punishments become much more abstract-- becoming a cruel person, a dropout, having poor health.
An outsider would say that it seems like you had two sets of parents! But really, the rules have become much more abstract but the ideas behind them are the same. And so I guess we could say that the OT God uses harsh medicine because His people are simple and brutal people and that's the only language they can understand. But NT people have progressed to the point where they can comprehend the reasoning behind the violence. Once we see this the discrepancy disappears.
This opens a whole kettle of fish-- but can we say that Hebrew society was really so changed between the testaments? Well, they are many, many centuries apart. But why isn't God consistent? We can't have it both ways; we either have a God who is involved in human affairs or not, and the Judeo-Christian God is involved with man the way he is at the time. Third, does it mean we can expect a new set of rules someday? Well, the teenager doesn't; they stay pretty much the same as an adult.
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| My belief is Christians (especially the fundamentalist ones) need the Old Testement because if they truelt followed Chrsit's message in the New Testement they's be the biggest bunch of bleeding heart, hippy, liberals in the planet. |
Yeah, some like having a little fire-and-brimstone around to make themselves feel superior. No license is required to be a Christian, unfortunately. But I do think we shouldn't overgeneralize. There are places in the OT where God is merciful and kind; in Job he has a gentle sense of humor. And Christ kicked butt sometimes in righteous anger; he wasn't always this blue-eyed feminine fellow in the white silk robe we see in the paintings.
Ken:> |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:54 am Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
| huffdaddy wrote: |
Well, you're ignoring the fact that all of these great prophets were Jewish. Remember, "the chosen people"? They certainly have a thing or two to say about "fulfilled prophecies". Do you assume G-d will forgive you for worshipping a false prophet? |
I hope you are not taking these posts as attacks, because I really like your questioning and your ability to think. |
You never attack.
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What is amazing is that Isaiah prophesied about Jesus throughout his writings. So lets say the book was written in 200 BC, which it seems you agree with. Then how could he foretell the future messiah with such pinpoint accuracy?
Read Isaiah 53. |
"Pinpoint accuracy"?? Really?? I find it all very poetic and vague. Sure, you could possibly apply it to Jesus. But it is hardly what I'd call "pinpoint".
This is the most specific verse I could find:
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Isaiah 53:5 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed. |
You might claim "pierced" is prophetic. But King James translates it differently.
| Quote: |
Isaiah 53:5 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him;
and with his stripes we are healed. |
Either way, it sounds a lot like the traditional sacrifical lamb. Not really a big step out in terms of prophecizing.
And then there are verses which seem outright wrong.
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Isaiah 53:3 (New International Version)
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not. |
Jesus had his disciples, not to mention large crowds which would come to hear him speak. Hardly seems despised and rejected to me.
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| Finally, the evidence of Christ and his prophesies aren't fuzzy and without strength. There are many examples, like I have shown, to prove Christ exists. |
Not that I want to debate every point of prophecy, but there is one important prophecy which separates the Jews from the Gentiles. That is the virgin birth versus the prophecies that the Messiah would be descended from David. How do you reconcile that?
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| That's ok, because there are so many other proofs that have been shown. So I have choosen to put my faith in Christ because He has proven to me to be who He has said He is. |
Perfectly fine. To each their own. Religion should be about personal fulfillment. If you've found something that fulfills your own needs, more power to you. But trying to convert people with "proof" is not what Christianity should be about. Too many Christians (and I'm not saying you) are wrapped up in the ideologies and ignore the overall point of Christianity. If more "Christians" focused on trying to live up to their ideals, and less time focused on things like "proof" they'd get a loss less criticism from the non-Christians. Again, not a personal dig at you. Just an overall evaluation of Christianity. |
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Teufelswacht
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Location: Land Of The Not Quite Right
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
| Teufelswacht wrote: |
5 Eagles and/or Meegook:
Endo asks some basic and common questions that are easily explained. According to scripture Christians should be prepared to "contend earnestly for the faith," right? C'mon guys. I really admire your passion and willingness to get out there and mix it up with people, but gosh the answers to the questions posed are not that difficult.
What I am sensing in this thread is validation of the old addage "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." I don't think contending for the faith means adhering to the "No, it isn't - Yes, it is - No, it isn't - Yes, it is" school yard debate strategy. Unfortunately, that is what I think I am seeing here.
I admit I could be wrong. Most of the time I am. Just ask my wife! But when Endo poses a basic question about Yeshua and the adulterous woman - and there is yet to be an on-point response from either of you guys, I start to wonder. Maybe you guys just haven't had the time, I don't know. If that is the case then I will admit I may be off-base. But the response to endo shouldn't take that long to formulate.
Again, I admire you guys, but I think you stop taking a knife to a gun-fight!
Oh, and to answer the question "Well if you know why don't you answer teuf baby?" I'll say this: (1) I didn't start the debate. (2) I learned a long time ago that you won't convince someone about matter of faith by using an internet site. Since you guys see it differently, that's fine. Go for it. I am just trying to show you the need to be prepared and study some simple apologetics before you decide to engage in discussions with persons ambivalent and/or even hostile to your faith on an internet forum. Finally (3) Yes, I could easily answer endo's question - Can you? Then do it!!
Take care.
T |
I don't know if you noticed, but I answered three of his previous questions in which he didn't respond, so then I am not going to keep on chasing the wind. You know whadda I mean? |
Fine. If you feel you answered the questions, so be it. As far as chasing the wind goes, it seems we kind of agree. I don't believe in starting a chase when the outcome is foreseeable. While others believe in stopping the chase mid-stretch - which may, in certain cases, leave the impression of "frustration" ( if that is even the word I am looking for). There are strengths and weaknesses in both approaches I believe.
Take care.
T |
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Meegook
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 4:28 am Post subject: |
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John 1:
17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
This verse, in a nutshell, is the difference between the Old Testament and the New.
The Old brought in the Law, the purpose of which was to show man that he can not, by obeying the law, earn favor with God.
In the New, with the coming of Jesus, is the coming of grace and truth. Grace is needed because man could not and can not obey the law of God. So, Christ, God's Son, came to fulfill the demands of the law.
John 3:
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
Posters here don't even understand the physical or 'earthly' things of the Bible, and yet they expect to understand the spiritual 'heavenly' things. That type or kind of understanding only comes after you trust God. That kind of understanding comes with faith. God provides ample evidence 'earthly' things to lead you to trust Him, and then AFTER you trust Him He shows you spiritual things. It's futile for a Christian to try to teach a non-Christian certain 'spiritual' things, because they don;t have the capacity to understand them. You can't, no matter what is said or how it's said.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, [Exodus] so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
This is where the woman taken in adultery comes in. Christ came not to condemn, but to save. In the Old Test. the law demanded righteousness.
In the New, God provides it. In Christ.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. |
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Teufelswacht
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Location: Land Of The Not Quite Right
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| Meegook wrote: |
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| Well, us bleacher sitters don't have to be in the game to see that the hitter is missing the ball. |
The point is one is sitting in the peanut section and the other is in the game.
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| I didn't start the debate. |
I didn't either.
Given limited time and the attitude of the pitcher, I happen to prefer to choose what balls I'm going to swing at because the umps aren't always impartial. Even when a pitch is in the dirt, they tend to call it a strike anyway.
And we have some little league players trying to get major league answers in less time than it takes to eat a footlong.
Capiche? |
Leaving the "tone" of your reply aside, I didn't miss your point. Although it is apparent you have misconstrued mine. It doesn't matter where you sit in the bleachers - in the peanut gallery or are a catcher behind homeplate, you can still see the hitter missing the fast ball over the plate. In my opinion, the question about John 8: 1-11 was just such a fastball that, handled properly, could have been knocked out of the park.
If time is an issue for you, there are plenty of resources you can provide a synopsis for, and then link to, to support your position. The questions that have been asked of you and/or 5E are not new by any stretch of the imagination. These questions have been asked and contemplated for literally hundreds of years in some cases. Cogent answers have been devised by minds greater than you or I. Use them to assist you in your answers. If the "pitcher" doesn't accept the answer offered by your reference then that is between the pitcher and the author of your suppporting documentation.
I am fully aware that there are questions that make you want to roll your eyes. Mine too. But when you "cherry pick" what you will and will not or can not address because of time, research limitations, preference or perceived impartiality, isn't it true that you can be accused of "copping out" on an answer? Some of the others responses to your postings have, in so many words, accused you of doing just that. You should be prepared for this and be prepared to offer a reasonable explanation as to why the question posed is unreasonable on its face because of the supposition from which it originates or suffers from a genetic fallacy.
I know you didn't start the debate. However, I made that point, as part of my overall answer, to forestall the obvious question as to why I don't get involved in indepth theological discussions on an EFL/ESL website. Your answer to me (little league vs. major league) reinforced my point. Thank you.
Capiche?
Anyways, this is going nowhere. Take my advice for what it's worth and the spirit in which it is given. I'm outta here. Have fun with your discussion. Best of luck to you.
Take care.
T |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| Question: Is G-d all knowing with regards to the future? Specifically, does he know everything that is going to happen, before it happens? Or are the prophecies exceptions to the rule? |
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Meegook
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:35 am Post subject: |
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| If time is an issue for you, there are plenty of resources you can provide a synopsis for, and then link to, to support your position. |
Same resources are available for you. Have at it.
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| In my opinion, the question about John 8: 1-11 was just such a fastball that, handled properly, could have been knocked out of the park. |
Easy for someone sitting in the bleachers to say, as he slips out during the bottom of the eighth inning to beat the crowd, while the player stays until the game is over.
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Peanut eater.
Last edited by Meegook on Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Meegook
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Question: Is G-d all knowing with regards to the future? Specifically, does he know everything that is going to happen, before it happens? Or are the prophecies exceptions to the rule? |
First question, yes, second, no. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| Meegook wrote: |
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Question: Is G-d all knowing with regards to the future? Specifically, does he know everything that is going to happen, before it happens? Or are the prophecies exceptions to the rule? |
First question, yes, second, no. |
And is G-d ever wrong about his knowledge of the future? |
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Meegook
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:55 am Post subject: |
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Never wrong? No. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Begining and the End. He knows the begining from the end.
Nothing catches him by surprise. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| Meegook wrote: |
Never wrong? No. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Begining and the End. He knows the begining from the end.
Nothing catches him by surprise. |
Don't you mean "Ever wrong? No."? Or is it "Never wrong? Yes." or I suppose it could be "Never wrong? No." The Koreans have screwed up my negative question response mechanism.
5E: Agree or disagree? |
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endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| I smell a set up - lol. |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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See Abraham for God's true nature.
cbc |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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Keeping with the baseball metaphor, Meegook's not just missing the ball, he doesn't even understand the rules of the game. I've lost count of the questions that we're waiting for Meegook to answer.
Fiveeagles, I'm wondering, isn't betting the Christianity farm on the infallibility of scripture quite risky? Once you claim that its infallible you've set it up so that every detail that contradicts it is a challenge to be politically opposed, like science, or to be accounted for by tortured logic and just-so stories, as in the case of many biblical contradictions. It just seems like a pretty brittle base for faith. Ken's approach by contrast seems a lot more stable, and allows him to live in the world without feeling like most of modern life is part of a conspiracy to discredit the Bible. Having said that though, you probably don't feel like you have much choice in the matter. Just curious about your opinion (and that of other Christians) on this matter. |
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