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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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 Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Octavius Hite wrote: |
| ...China is approaching Africa as a partner and an equal. |
As a Realist, I find this very hard to believe. (I would not place any European colonizer, the United States, Russia, Cuba, or China above or below each other on a scale of high moral purpose -- methods, entirely different story -- in Africa: they are all the same: just trying to influence the continent/region so that, inasmuch as possible, things would go their way.) Still, I will not reject what you say here offhand.
How can you be so sure about Beijing's motives in Africa? Help me to see it as you are seeing it. Walk me through how you got here. |
Do you mean a realist as in the Morgenthau mold, or 'I am a realist' meaning you are just applying a fancy academic sounding term to your beliefs in order to presuppose that anything to the contrary is a flight of fancy? |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| As a partner and as an equal. kumbaya. I agree with Gopher on this one and would appreciate an elaboration on why you think that's the case. |
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Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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Well our tendancy is to be cynical about the motives of superpowers, as their motives and methods in the past have been nothing short of criminal and many cases bordering on genocide, so I understand how people could view China's summit with some skepticism.
However I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until we see evidence of them doing something really awful (like the west watching Rwanda and the Congo destroy themselves).
From all I saw and read China treated the African leaders as guests and greeted them warmly. It looked like any summit bewteen a European leader and the White House. For the first time, that I can remember at least, it was a meeting about free trade and economic growth for Africa rather than one about HIV/AIDS or war or famine or some wacky dictator or some billionare celebrity talking about saving Africa.
All Africa's problems are important but none can be effectivily dealt with until they develop some sort of economy.
And for the last 60 years+ the West has been "helping" and look where it has gotten Africa. Again I say good luck and thank you China. To all those hypocritical, do nothing Europeans (and Canadians and Americans) I say shut up. |
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canuckistan
Mod Team
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| A lot of Chinese aid/investment in Africa has been tied to dropping official recognition of Taiwan. 48 countries so far. Chad, Liberia, Senegal being the latest. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Octavius Hite wrote: |
And for the last 60 years+ the West has been "helping" and look where it has gotten Africa. Again I say good luck and thank you China. To all those hypocritical, do nothing Europeans (and Canadians and Americans) I say shut up. |
"Shut up"ing debate is not the best way to handle a discussion. Sorry if people have different view than you, but free speech does mean you do have to listen to others perspectives.
I still think there is no way China is doing this out of the good of it's heart. It wants to expand. Whether this expansion helps Africa or not, I will wait to see and judge after. And you seem to say (though I am not sure) Africa shouldn't shoulder any blame for it's current situation? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Octavius Hite wrote: |
| I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until we see evidence of them doing something really awful...From all I saw and read China treated the African leaders as guests and greeted them warmly... |
I thought it was something like this. This is certainly your prerogative, Octavius. But I disagree with you.
Finally, when I suggest that Beijing's movites in Africa are little or no different from anyone else's who has been or still is there, please do not take this as my criticizing Beijing: I am not.
Personally, I find Beijing's moves, including the ones Canuckistan describes immediately above, interesting (and I know this is a terribly vague descriptor). I, too, am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and would disagree with anyone who alleged China was moving "to take over the world" or some other nonsense.
Nonetheless, all that I have seen (and my information and conclusions are equally as impressionistic as yours; I am no China expert) they are and have been formulating regional-oriented foreign policies and diplomacy; they are moving into the blue-water navy, power-projection business to eventually be able to back this up; they are also developing covert action and special forces capabilities (have been for some time); they are showing interest in space exploration and related communications and defense technologies, including anti-sat capabilities, apparently; and now, they are politically and economically moving into Africa, most likely for strategic resource acquisition and to establish a sphere of influence.
Good for them. Not necessarily bad for us. Maybe even a good change for some Africans -- that is, the elites the Chinese will probably work through, just like everyone else who has been or still is there. Let's see where things go, then.
This notwithstanding, let's not romanticize what they are doing, either... |
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Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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I was saying shut up to the people on this board. I was saying shut up to those Europians acting so shocked that those poor, dumb African's would dare choose some other teet to suck at. Its just so crazy.
Who cares if Sudan or Senegal backs China over Taiwan, nobody. Taiwan is not going anywhere and the Chinese know that. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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In Octavius's defense, I think this is what he meant to say...
| Octavius Hite wrote: |
| I wasn't saying shut up to the people on this board. I was saying shut up to those Europeans acting so shocked... |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Junior wrote: |
kind of pathetic to see Big ol' china rounding up all the Afs to tell them "we'll" give you dosh if you give us your resources.
All those corrupt leaders seeing yuan signs to enrich themselves even further. A gathering of gangsters looking for new ways to sell their sorry ass countries down the river.
oh well I hope there is some benefit for ordinary Africans out of this. |
one of the few times I agree with you. This will not help Africa's development. |
China bought her influence in Africa in the 60's and 70's, by supplying weapons, training and ideology to overthrow western colonial govts in Africa. African nationalists were happy at the time to get backing and pretended to go along with the marxist ideology surrounding it. Mugabe himself recieved training in China as did a host of others to carry out insurgencies in Africa.
Having disposed of what was relatively stable governments, China can now cash in and call in their old loyalties.
A similar case of this was North Korea's heavy involvement in Zimbabwe for example. training and supplying Mugabes fifth brigade which then massacred thousands of political opponents in the south. Then last year, hello, Zimbabwe is to supply uranium to North korea.
As far as i can see..both Chinese and Koreans regard Africans as little more than apes guarding a treasure trove of resources. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| ...both Chinese and Koreans regard Africans as little more than apes guarding a treasure trove of resources. |
This is something I'd like to know much more about: Chinese perceptions regarding "Africa" and "Africans."
Has anybody got anything on this? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Junior wrote: |
kind of pathetic to see Big ol' china rounding up all the Afs to tell them "we'll" give you dosh if you give us your resources.
All those corrupt leaders seeing yuan signs to enrich themselves even further. A gathering of gangsters looking for new ways to sell their sorry ass countries down the river.
oh well I hope there is some benefit for ordinary Africans out of this. |
one of the few times I agree with you. This will not help Africa's development. |
China bought her influence in Africa in the 60's and 70's, by supplying weapons, training and ideology to overthrow western colonial govts in Africa. African nationalists were happy at the time to get backing and pretended to go along with the marxist ideology surrounding it. Mugabe himself recieved training in China as did a host of others to carry out insurgencies in Africa.
Having disposed of what was relatively stable governments, China can now cash in and call in their old loyalties.
A similar case of this was North Korea's heavy involvement in Zimbabwe for example. training and supplying Mugabes fifth brigade which then massacred thousands of political opponents in the south. Then last year, hello, Zimbabwe is to supply uranium to North korea.
As far as i can see..both Chinese and Koreans regard Africans as little more than apes guarding a treasure trove of resources. |
Junior, you sure do have an impressive knowledge of African history. Are you from there? 
Anyway, I agree with the thrust of your post, which is that China is looking for resources. But would they be mineral resources?
This website seems to suggest not, but in effect, China is slowing its mineral imports because it is becoming ever more dependent upon exports, whose prices are rising because of the escalating demand, from China most of all.
| Quote: |
| By 2010, China might need to import 57 percent of its iron ore, 70 percent of copper concentrate, and 80 percent of alumina, said Zhang Jian, president of China Nonferrous Metal Mining Corp., the country's top investor in overseas mining projects. |
Anyway, according to this article, the 1.9 billion dollar aid deal has just passed. |
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Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks Gopher, drunk at work again, I wasn't sayiung shut up to people on the board. Thanks |
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Beej
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Location: Eungam Loop
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| Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:22 am Post subject: |
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| Octavius Hite wrote: |
Well our tendancy is to be cynical about the motives of superpowers, as their motives and methods in the past have been nothing short of criminal and many cases bordering on genocide, so I understand how people could view China's summit with some skepticism.
However I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until we see evidence of them doing something really awful (like the west watching Rwanda and the Congo destroy themselves).
From all I saw and read China treated the African leaders as guests and greeted them warmly. It looked like any summit bewteen a European leader and the White House. For the first time, that I can remember at least, it was a meeting about free trade and economic growth for Africa rather than one about HIV/AIDS or war or famine or some wacky dictator or some billionare celebrity talking about saving Africa.
All Africa's problems are important but none can be effectivily dealt with until they develop some sort of economy.
And for the last 60 years+ the West has been "helping" and look where it has gotten Africa. Again I say good luck and thank you China. To all those hypocritical, do nothing Europeans (and Canadians and Americans) I say shut up. |
What about the shameless and extensive diplomatic cover at the UN that China has been giving the butchers in Sudan. |
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Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:02 am Post subject: |
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| Rwanda, Somlia, Chad, Equatorial Guinea, South Africa, Morrocco, Libya, etc. Europe, America and others have had no problem looking the other way when it suited their commercial and geopolitical needs. I think China covering for Sudan is bad, but the West is so tainted by colonialism and cold war antics that it should just keep its mouth shut. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:18 am Post subject: |
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| Octavius Hite wrote: |
| Rwanda, Somlia, Chad, Equatorial Guinea, South Africa, Morrocco, Libya, etc. Europe, America and others have had no problem looking the other way when it suited their commercial and geopolitical needs. I think China covering for Sudan is bad, but the West is so tainted by colonialism and cold war antics that it should just keep its mouth shut. |
You think it's bad, but you won't let 'the West' call them out on it? 'The West' has been guilty of so many crimes, you say. Well, I guess if you conglomerate every power in Europe and in more recent times No. America into one, and attribute the crimes committed under that single regime, by some of its 'representatives,' to 'the West as a whole, throughout its entire existence, then yes, nobody in 'the West' should have the moral high ground to talk.
Let's keep this from getting insipid, shall we? We have a select group of autocratic bureaucrats running the show in China, and their policies in the Sudan (for starters) have allowed them to profit off of genocide. There are people in 'the West,' because you see, as a Westerner I believe in moral matters people stand alone unless they choose to stand with others, as I was saying, there are people in 'the West,' who still have the moral high-ground to simply say, "Hey, what that select group of Chinese autocratic bureaucrats is doing in the Sudan is not right. It's more than business."
You know, just when I think Gopher is getting a tad pedantic, somebody like yourself, Octavius Hite, says something so jaw-droppingly incoherent, that I once again become sympathetic not just to his intentions but his methodology as well.
I mean your post stinks of the worst kind of double standards and shoddy relativism.
Oh, and I won't stop there. I want some links. Show me where the US or Europe explicitly aided an African dictator or power knowingly while that African dictator or power engaged in a systematic genocide. Don't show me how the US or Europe gave aid to someone who later acted out, and don't show me how the US or Europe gave aid to someone after they had stopped acting out. I want a link showing knowing and ungrudging aid to an African leader or power, or otherwise direct involvement by the US or Europe in acting in the way the Janjaweed and the Sudanese gov't are behaving.
I challenge you to show me you aren't completely off your ass. |
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