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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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 Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| mateomiguel wrote: |
| but removing the clitoris is like cutting off the head of the *beep* entirely. (anybody visit ogrish lately?) If you want to equate a female genital modification with circumcision you need to talk about removing the clitoral hood only. |
I don't think anyone is debating that. Chopping off a piece of skin and removing a large part of the organ are obviously two different things. |
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brento1138
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| mateomiguel wrote: |
| but removing the clitoris is like cutting off the head of the *beep* entirely. (anybody visit ogrish lately?) If you want to equate a female genital modification with circumcision you need to talk about removing the clitoral hood only. |
I don't think anyone is debating that. Chopping off a piece of skin and removing a large part of the organ are obviously two different things. |
But cutting off part of one's natural self without their approval is wrong...  |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
It should also be read into the record that, according to the stats, 90% of females in Ethiopia have been subjected to genital mutilation. And Ethiopia is about 67% non-Muslim. You can do the math.
http://tinyurl.com/sd2lg
http://tinyurl.com/yy4oc6 |
Yes. That entire region of Africa.. Somalia, Ethiopia, Sudan, etc.
Totally cultural... to that region. |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| brento1138 wrote: |
| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| mateomiguel wrote: |
| but removing the clitoris is like cutting off the head of the *beep* entirely. (anybody visit ogrish lately?) If you want to equate a female genital modification with circumcision you need to talk about removing the clitoral hood only. |
I don't think anyone is debating that. Chopping off a piece of skin and removing a large part of the organ are obviously two different things. |
But cutting off part of one's natural self without their approval is wrong... |
Of course. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
It should also be read into the record that, according to the stats, 90% of females in Ethiopia have been subjected to genital mutilation. And Ethiopia is about 67% non-Muslim. You can do the math.
http://tinyurl.com/sd2lg
http://tinyurl.com/yy4oc6 |
That is the point I was making. There isn't a clear doctrinal backing among Muslims supporting female circumcision. Though cases can be found in some places in Jordan and Iraq it is rare in comparison to Africa, and, if found in Syria, whose people tend to be more moderate, it would be even rarer there. As far as in the Arab non-black countries that would potentially have a lot of female circumcision, it would be Saudi Arabia.
In the other countries it would be rare in comparison. We don't know enough about Saudi Arabia but it is still quite tribal and backward like the African states and it is shrouded in secrecy.
By the way, I read that in the U.S. there was a limited cutting done until 1977. Blue Cross Blue Shield even paid for it. It was a small cutting of the clitoris. I was surprised. They also in the past did it to discourage masturbation. I was surprised by that.
As far as this court case, I am rather convinced based on the facts that the father was behind this. Why? He is Ethiopian. The news article said she is South African, by origin. According to maps, it is not common at all in South Africa. It is more common in East and West Africa. |
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jmbran11
Joined: 19 Jan 2006
Location: U.S.
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| While I understand people who oppose male circumcision, it is ludicrous and quite offensive to compare that practice with female "circumcision." In the U.S. young males are circumcised at birth by licensed medical or religious professionals in a sterile setting. It may be arguably unnecessary and detract from sexual pleasure in later years. Girls, on the other hand, are "circumcised" when much older, in largely unsanitary and barbaric conditions, and subject to severe discomfort, pain, infection, and death due to the practice (along with complete loss of sexual pleasure for the rest of their lives). This is one of the widest spread human rights abuses taking place in the world today. It is undoubtedly a form of torture. Unlike male circumcision, it has no medical, hygenic, or religious purpose, yet is defended as a "cultural" norm. Punishing these abusers in the U.S. is a small step toward addressing the problem internationally, but it is a step. (Of course, I have no way to know if the father in this case is guilty) |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| jmbran11 wrote: |
| While I understand people who oppose male circumcision, it is ludicrous and quite offensive to compare that practice with female "circumcision." In the U.S. young males are circumcised at birth by licensed medical or religious professionals in a sterile setting. It may be arguably unnecessary and detract from sexual pleasure in later years. Girls, on the other hand, are "circumcised" when much older, in largely unsanitary and barbaric conditions, and subject to severe discomfort, pain, infection, and death due to the practice (along with complete loss of sexual pleasure for the rest of their lives). This is one of the widest spread human rights abuses taking place in the world today. It is undoubtedly a form of torture. Unlike male circumcision, it has no medical, hygenic, or religious purpose, yet is defended as a "cultural" norm. Punishing these abusers in the U.S. is a small step toward addressing the problem internationally, but it is a step. (Of course, I have no way to know if the father in this case is guilty) |
I'm not saying it is just as severe, but there is some comparision to be made. There have been documented cases of boys who have contracted AIDS and other diseases through circumcision in Africa (they probably use the same rusty razor blade to do both). Male circumcision also negatively affects the boy's sexual health. It detracts from sexual pleasure. We know this from the testimonies of men who were circumcised as adults.
http://www.circumcision.org/adults.htm
http://www.circumcision.org/satisfied.htm
In any case, male circumcision is an unnecessary procedure, regardless of whether it's done in a sterile environment or not.
Many doctors won't do it anymore because they've witnessed too many babies go into shock. Yes, into shock. Turns out this supposedly painless surgery is actually extremely painful and traumatic to the babies.
The argument for its health benefits are pretty weak, too.
http://www.circumcision.org/benefits.htm
Turns out, circumcision is popular in the US for the simple reason that fundamentalist christian doctors began advocating, and performing, the surgery a 100 years ago because they thought it would tame the libido. Circumcision was performed in the hopes that it would reduce sensitivity.
http://www.fathermag.com/health/circ/historical.shtml
In fact, circumcision has no prophylactic benefit...furthermore, research suggests that circumcized men are more likely to masturbate (practice self-love).
http://www.circumcision.org/studies.htm
http://www.circumcision.org/adults.htm |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:53 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Turns out, circumcision is popular in the US for the simple reason that fundamentalist christian doctors began advocating, and performing, the surgery a 100 years ago because they thought it would tame the libido. |
Not to absolve the Christians from blame, but I think you'll find that doctors of another religious persuasion were pretty big on male circumcision as well. |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Turns out, circumcision is popular in the US for the simple reason that fundamentalist christian doctors began advocating, and performing, the surgery a 100 years ago because they thought it would tame the libido. |
Not to absolve the Christians from blame, but I think you'll find that doctors of another religious persuasion were pretty big on male circumcision as well. |
Those doctors form the minority and cannot account for the popularity of the surgery amongst gentiles. Compare the popularity of the surgery in the US with its popularity in Canada, where there are and have been fewer fundamentalist christians. |
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ariellowen
Joined: 19 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| Ethiopia is about 67% non-Muslim. You can do the |
Ethiopia � Religion: Muslim 45%-50% .... |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| ariellowen wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
| Ethiopia is about 67% non-Muslim. You can do the |
Ethiopia � Religion: Muslim 45%-50% .... |
My source says 32.8% muslim. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:16 am Post subject: |
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ariellowen wrote:
On the other hand wrote:
Ethiopia is about 67% non-Muslim. You can do the
Ethiopia � Religion: Muslim 45%-50% ....
My source says 32.8% muslim.
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Either way, if the female circumcision rate is 90%, that still leaves a siginficant portion of non-Muslim females circumcised. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I'm waiting for Rapier's new sock to do the explaining for all those who love baby Jesus yet still do this to their girls.  |
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MissSeoul
Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Location: Somewhere in America
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| dogbert wrote: |
| True dat. It is not so much a Muslim thing as it is a negro thing. |
Mod Edit: Removed flame. |
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Juregen
Joined: 30 May 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| mateomiguel wrote: |
male circumcision is the fight against smegma.
smeg�ma
n.
A sebaceous secretion, especially the whitish cheesy secretion that collects under the prepuce of the *beep* or around the clitoris.
Its not quite the same dude. I for one am glad that I have no smegma. |
That's stupid. It's like pulling out all of one's teeth in order to save the trouble of brushing them. People can just teach their kids to wash properly if they are worried about hygiene. |
I second this
I really had to put up a fight for my son not to get circumcized here in Korea. |
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