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Israeli soldiers shoot women
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pastis

Joined: 20 Jun 2006

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:36 pm Post subject:

Junior wrote:

I think you need to be educated Adventurer. really, you have no clue. Of course the palestinian woman you happened to speak to didn't tell you her father beat her once a week for fun, or her husband married her only because he raped her etc. OF COURSE they don't tell an outsider, a stranger on the street all about their wretched existence. The simple act of telling you if overheard by a passer-by would mostly likely result in her death. A lot of murders aren't even reported or known to police. I really think you have no understanding of muslim society and how incredibly male-dominated it is in Palestine. The women are little more than animals. They can be killed at will for slight infractions, by any male in a bad mood. And nothing happens. NOTHING. It doesn't even get to the police. The police are almost totally innefective. There is little or no justice in this muslim society. yet people like Big bird advance the cause of this archaic "civilisation". I would really like for Big bird to marry a muslim man, maybe even live iwith him in Palestine. I'm sure after she's been whipped a few times for talking without permission, she'd stop posting her cr*p on here.

Junior, you're a raving lunatic. Have you ever been to Israel? Have you ever met or talked with any real Palestinians in your entire life, there or elsewhere?

Yes or no

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:31 pm Post subject:

Junior wrote:

. I would really like for Big bird to marry a muslim man, maybe even live iwith him in Palestine. I'm sure after she's been whipped a few times for talking without permission, she'd stop posting her cr*p on here.

Yeah, and after the whippings I'd be begging the IDF to fire helicopter missiles at the surrounding neighbourhoods, pleading with them to blow up my house - perhaps maiming or killing my little half Palestinian children in the process, sending my kids out to the shops in the hope they'd be blown in half by an IDF tank on the way home, rejoicing whenever a stray IDF sniper's bullet found it's way through my window and so on. After a taste of domestic violence I'd just love to live under Israeli occupation - right Junior?

Please explain to me again how this illegal and gruesome occupation helps the Palestinian women? I'm still a little unclear about how that works.... Confused

Junior

Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:01 pm Post subject:

[quote="Adventurer"]

Junior wrote:

I think you need to be educated Adventurer.
Thank you for the hilarious joke. You are attempting to cover up for your blatant racism in which you stated that Palestinian men, wholesale, treat their wives like slaves.

Have you not taken notice of any of the other threads posting numerous links to studies made, first hand accounts and other figures showing the above to be true?

Can you read? Ok just for the sake of your learning disability, lets go over it all again. You're a special case. Now, pay attention. from now on it is not me you are arguing with but news reporters, human rights watch, amnesty international, and other surveyors and compilers of information. You are even calling liars the Palestinian women who say that domestic violence is everywhere in palestininan homes.

Report: Palestinian women victims of violence
Rape, other abuse widespread in territories, Human Rights Watch says
Nov. 6, 2006
RAMALLAH, West Bank - A new report presents an alarming picture of the abuse of women in the Palestinian territories, with police, courts and government agencies failing to treat violence such as rape and beatings as a crime.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15593267/

Palestinian women 'not protected'

Violence against Palestinian women often goes unreported, HRW says
Palestinian women and girls have little protection from violence against them, the advocacy group Human Rights Watch (HRW) has said.
Discriminatory laws and a lack of policies to assist victims of abuse mean violence often goes unreported or unpunished, the group said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6123380.stm

Flirting was a costly mistake for Samera. She was only 15 years old when her neighbours in Salfeet, a small Palestinian town on the West Bank, saw her chatting with a young man without a male chaperone. Her family's honour was at stake; a marriage was quickly arranged. By 16, she had a child. Five years later, when she could stand the bogus marriage no longer, she bolted. In a place where gossip is traded like hard currency, and a girl's chastity is as public as her name, Samera's actions were considered akin to making a date with the devil. According to the gossips, she went from man to man as she moved from place to place. Finally, last July [1999], her family caught up with her. A few days later she was found stuffed down a well. Her neck had been broken. Her father told the coroner she'd committed suicide. But everyone on the grapevine knew that Samera was a victim of honour killing, murdered by her own family because her actions brought dishonour to their name. ... Here in the West Bank, the Palestinian Authority law allows honour killing. Samera's parents are walking the streets of their neighbourhood with their heads held high, relieved that the family honour has been restored. (Armstrong, "Honour's Victims", Chatelaine, March 2000.)
www.gendercide.org/case_honour.html

Murder by family

The murder of females in the Middle East is an ancient tradition. Prior to the arrival of Islam in AD 622, Arabs buried infant daughters to avoid the possibility that they would later bring shame to the family. This practice continued through the centuries.
Several thousand women a year are victims of honor killings. Numerous murders are ruled an accident, suicide, or family dispute, if they're reported at all. Police and government officials are often bribed to ignore crimes and hinder investigations. A woman beaten, burned, strangled, shot, or stabbed to death is often ruled a suicide, even when there are multiple wounds.
Many women are killed and buried in unmarked graves; their very existence is removed from community and clan records. The fact that so many murders go unreported is indicative of the status of women and the role of culture in fundamentalist Islamic countries.
www.worldandi.com/newhome/public/2003/may/clpub.asp

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:02 pm Post subject:

And again I'll ask you the question: "Quite how does all this domestic violence justify an illegal occupation?"

Junior

Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:11 pm Post subject:

pastis wrote:

Have you ever met or talked with any real Palestinians in your entire life, there or elsewhere?

Yes or no

yes, of course I have. No, I haven;t been there.
I have been to japan for 4 days and spoken to japanese folks. but I don't claim to be an authority on japanese society.

Adventurer saw a few veiled Palestinian women in a market once. Now he claims that they seemed OK and there is no violence in Palestine: that muslim men treat their women as equal humans, they even do the housework. he is an expert, and the extensive research of Amnesty international and human rights watch -is obviously lies. Even the Palestinian woman who wrote a book about her life in the west bank, accounting the slave like status of women there and litany of abuses in her village, family, neighbourhood and region....all lies apparently. Adventurer knows best.

Junior

Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:13 pm Post subject:

Big_Bird wrote:

an illegal occupation?"

The "Palestinians" are illegally occupying Israeli land, correct. Well done Bigbird, you actually checked the historical facts for once.

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:15 pm Post subject:

Junior wrote:

pastis wrote:

Have you ever met or talked with any real Palestinians in your entire life, there or elsewhere?

Yes or no

No, I think Adventurer acknowledges that there is violence against women in Palestinian society - however he also acknowledges that not every single muslim man in the occupied territories is a despotic wife beater regularly terrorising his wife and setting fire to his sisters. And that last part is the concept that you seem to be struggling with.

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:17 pm Post subject:

Junior wrote:

Big_Bird wrote:

an illegal occupation?"

The "Palestinians" are illegally occupying Israeli land, correct. Well done Bigbird, you actually checked the historical facts for once.

Oh? Well this 'fact' is new to me, and anyone else on the planet who doesn't consider the mumbo jumbo in the Old Testament to be a legal and binding real estate contract.

Junior

Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:47 pm Post subject:

Big_Bird wrote:

not every single muslim man in the occupied territories is a despotic wife beater regularly terrorising his wife and setting fire to his sisters.

Now your twisting things into the ridiculous to try and claim higher ground.
I never said every last individual man in palestine was a monster. I said that violence against women is on a relatively massive scale in palestine. It is acceptable in their society. It is prevalent, widespread, common. It is largely ignored, overlooked, unreported, or misreported. There is little or no help available to these muslim women in society: they are alone and helpless, imprisoned by their fascist men in a world of fear and abuse.

Anyone who denies that, has not looked at the evidence or listened to the few women who have managed to escape thhat hellhole.

Most surprisingly and ashamedly, it is westerners with meaningless high minded opinions who protect and support this state of affairs. Like yourself and adventurer. Are you sadists?

Quote:

Oh? Well this 'fact' is new to me, and anyone else on the planet who doesn't consider the mumbo jumbo in the Old Testament to be a legal and binding real estate contract.

The Jews have probably the best claim to territory of any nation on earth. ALL EVIDENCE...historical records, archaeology,documents, historians, biblical, prove that the Jews have continuously lived in Israel for 3000 years, with a culture and language virtually unchanged. All of it backs up the account of the bible.Palestine is a recent made-up name. Palestinians are relatively recent incomers from the Arab world.

Palestinians have no legitimate claim to any part of Israel.
Abuse and oppression of women is part and parcel of muslim society.

Those are the truest sentences you will ever read, Miss Bird. And well you know it.

Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:04 pm Post subject:

[quote="Junior"][quote="Adventurer"]

Junior wrote:

Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:17 pm Post subject:

Big_Bird wrote:

Junior wrote:

Big_Bird wrote:

an illegal occupation?"

The "Palestinians" are illegally occupying Israeli land, correct. Well done Bigbird, you actually checked the historical facts for once.

Oh? Well this 'fact' is new to me, and anyone else on the planet who doesn't consider the mumbo jumbo in the Old Testament to be a legal and binding real estate contract.

Big Bird, discussing things with Junior is a praxis in futility. He or she criticised an African American Muslim's election in Congress simply because he happens to have the label Muslim. That is called prejudice.
Mind you, the mainstream Jewish community feels he is a good friend of the community, and it does not take issue with his faith as Junior did.
Most Jews, in the U.S., do not share Junior's animus or Binladin-like lack of tolerance for Muslims. They are people. Let us say abuse is not reported enough and the 23% is lower than it is supposed to be. Then, he has no empirical proof that the majority do abuse their spouses.
What empirical data we have says a minority do. You could argue that domestic abuse is underplayed in the U.S. and violence against women is a serious problem where so many women get raped.

Anyway, here are three or four mistakes Junior made this week:

1)Assuming an African American Congress is a fanatic because he is a Muslim. Anyway, it appears from a previous post, he supports Evangelical Christianity.

2)He stated that FGM or Female Genetical Mutilation is a common Muslim practice. While the statistics show it is common in parts of Africa among
not only Muslim but also Christians. He then quotes me a figure of about 1,500 FGM cases in Iraq when there is a population of about 12 million females. You do the math on that one to tell us if it is a common Muslim practice in Iraq.

3)He stated that Wafa Sultan, a Syrian atheist, did not appear on Al Jazeera, and I was mistaken without even checking the facts because he believes an Arab network cannot have liberal guests, I presume.

4)He states Palestinian burn their women. It is a general statement, but he has no figures. And when it comes to a figure of 23% of Palestinian women reporting abuse, it goes against his thesis, so he says the cases are under-reported, so they don't show that most are abused.

As far as Palestine, the argument that Palestinians are recent newcomers was written about in Joan Peters' book called "From Time Immemorial", and it was discredited by Professor Norman Finkelstein, and he showed how the statistics Peters' used even contradicted one another. Barbara Tuchman, I believe, initially endorsed the book and then removed the endorsement after Finkelstein's detailed critique of the book came out.
It was hard to dispute Finkelstein's scholarship no matter where you stand in Israeli politics. Also, Israel's modern historians completely disagree with this thesis including Benny Morris, who is definitely not pro-Palestinian.

As far as the U.N. is concerned and most states, the Palestinians are an occupied people. The West Bank and Gaza were considered occupied in 1967. Interpretations of the Bible, Buddha's Sutras, the Quran, or the Veddas (meaning life in Sanskrit) have nothing to do with international law. Also, Shlomo Ben Ami, a politician and a historian, does state that Palestinians were essentially made to flee in 1948, and they were the majority. If they were recent comers, how could they be a majority all of a sudden that is encouraged to flee. Most Jews came in the 20th century. So many were fleeing the genocidal NAZIs, and then they had to fight in a war in 1948, which could not be easily avoided.

Last but not least, dismissing Palestinians' rights to the land because they are not Jewish while the Jews retain an older religion makes no sense.
It is like saying a Jew in Syria is more indigenous to Syria than a Christian because his religion is older. People mix in countries for centuries. Anyway, the majority of Jews that were in British Mandate Palestine were born outside of Palestine. So this idea that the Arabs were newcomers meaning they are illegitimate dwellers, according to Junior, would mean the Jewish majority that came outside of Palestine just came to a place magically kept empty until they came. Sounds like fantasy land, if you ask me.

Islam and Christianity and Judaism are religions.
Being Jewish is sometimes considered a race. The same does not apply to Palestinian, Syrian, or Lebanese whethery they are Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. Otherwise, an Orthodox Palestinian would be of a different race than a Muslim. Both Jews and Palestinian Arabs have a right to the land in question, and they must come to an agreement. I won't discuss the ancient Kingdom of Israel, Edomites, Romans, the Bible, the Nabataens, that is not really germane to international law.

The injustices against the Palestinians cannot be undone anymore than the holocaust against the Jews. Lies, terrorism, violence from any side only divides. Peace is the only answer.

Last edited by Adventurer on Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:45 pm Post subject:

Here is an article by a female Hamas MP, who it appears, was targetted for extrajudicial killing by the Israeli forces (they blew up her house and killed another innocent woman in her place). She took part in the march which ended with women being fired on.

Quote:

It is not easy as a mother, sister or wife to watch those you love disappear before your eyes. Perhaps that was what helped me, and 1,500 other women, to overcome our fear and defy the Israeli curfew last Friday - and set about freeing some of our young men who were besieged in a mosque while defending us and our city against the Israeli military machine.

We faced the most powerful army in our region unarmed. The soldiers were loaded up with the latest weaponry, and we had nothing, except each other and our yearning for freedom. As we broke through the first barrier, we grew more confident, more determined to break the suffocating siege. The soldiers of Israel's so-called defence force did not hesitate to open fire on unarmed women. The sight of my close friends Ibtissam Yusuf abu Nada and Rajaa Ouda taking their last breaths, bathed in blood, will live with me for ever.

Later an Israeli plane shelled a bus taking children to a kindergarten. Two children were killed, along with their teacher. In the last week 30 children have died. As I go round the crowded hospital, it is deeply poignant to see the large number of small bodies with their scars and amputated limbs. We clutch our children tightly when we go to sleep, vainly hoping that we can shield them from Israel's tanks and warplanes.

Click here to read the full article.

She goes on to point out how little the world (my spineless government included) has done to condemn what's going on.

Last edited by Big_Bird on Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:52 pm Post subject:

Adventurer wrote:

Big Bird, discussing things with Junior is a praxis in futility.

Indeed. A mixture of this

this

and this

perhaps!

Junior

Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:02 pm Post subject:

I see big bird has ignored the fundamental proof that she is wrong and decided to cause a smokescreen/ diversion by harping on about the blood of innocent babies all over again.

quote Big bird:

Quote:

"Poor innocent babies blood arms legs kill"

jaganath69

Joined: 17 Jul 2003

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:04 pm Post subject:

Hehe, I see the poor white trash of Efrica is at it again. Haven't you got a maid to order around?

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